Modular Housing Wiki

Moving Stress Weight Loss Diet

admin — Thu, 31 Jul 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I managed to drop 3 lbs without trying, simply by going through a traumatic house closing. I won’t bore anyone with the horrible details, but it was bad enough that I didn’t eat much for 3 days. I was at 139 lbs this morning, 1/2 pound away from 30 lbs total los. Now the phone company, Veriozon, just informed me they have to run a new line down our street before we can have a phone and they’re about to go off on a BIG strike. The chances of my getting a phone for the new house any time soon are dim. I run a web based business out of my home which requires a phone for credit card processing (and web access since I don’t have cable.) Then, as the icing on the cake, after I left a window open in the new house for a couple hours yesterday, I came back to find it had cracked. . . Now is when I find out how good and/or bad the company is that put up this modular home after the closing.

Unfortunately, even the easiest of moves are stressful. Hang in, it’s only a blip on the radar. Good luck with the telephone line. In a couple weeks this will be something to laugh about and you’ll be so happy in the new house that none of this will even matter. Good luck and hang in there

Response:

Well, I managed to drop 3 lbs without trying, simply by going through a traumatic house closing. I won’t bore anyone with the horrible details, but it was bad enough that I didn’t eat much for 3 days. I was at 139 lbs this morning, 1/2 pound away from 30 lbs total los. Now the phone company, Veriozon, just informed me they have to run a new line down our street before we can have a phone and they’re about to go off on a BIG strike. The chances of my getting a phone for the new house any time soon are dim. I run a web based business out of my home which requires a phone for credit card processing (and web access since I don’t have cable.) Then, as the icing on the cake, after I left a window open in the new house for a couple hours yesterday, I came back to find it had cracked. . . Now is when I find out how good and/or bad the company is that put up this modular home after the closing.

Response:

Boy, some people will do anything to lose weight! Hang in there, Jenny… it will be over soon. Is there any way you can get a cable modem installed quickly enough to deal with your web business, or is that not available there? Or not worth it, or…? If I could loan you our DSL, I would… (HUGS) — Nancy Howells (don’t forget to switch it, and replace the to send mail).

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Nancy, I may end up having to move my computer to my brother’s house (way out in the woods) to run my business. The cable modem won’t run my charges which go through a traditional credit card terminal. Plus, we aren’t a TV-watching family so I’d rather not sign up for cable. I’ve lived for 9 years in a town where cable isn’t available and I’d much rather keep reading books and listening to our 3 great NPR stations for my news. So I am just holding my breath hoping this gets straightened out. The modular company were very reasonable about the broken window (this is the second pane that broke in that particular window which was added to the house on site after it was built, so it probably wasn’t installed right.) They also took care of a couple things that were promised but not done. So I’m decompressing on that. It will take a while to get the window pane replaced but at least they didn’t say, "Too bad, the closing was Tuesday" which is what I was afraid of. — Jenny 168.5/141 Low Carb 9/1998 – 8/2001 and 11/10/02 – Now http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean How to calculate your need for protein * How much people really lose each month * Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for Hunger Cravings * Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low Carb Treats * Should You Count that Low Impact Carb? * Curing Ketobreath * Exercise Starting from Zero * NEW! Do Starch Blockers Work?

mail).

Response:

ATTN: HVAC specialists

admin — Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

There are some techs who are new to the trade. Such as myself. A few who are impolite. And a very few who really know their trade. As for myself, I’ve made a few of the beginners mistakes. And will continue in the trade, and make a few more mistakes. I don’t think the DIY end of things is more or less than before. The data is more easily accessable due to internet. — Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com

HVAC Specialist = Prima Donna ??? That is an oxymoron if I’ve ever heard one. Why do you think the DIY craze has caught on, so you don’t have to pay Moe, Larry, and Curly $100/hr.

Response:

Dr. Hardcrab posted for all of us… I don’t top post – see either inline or at bottom. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – without EPA certs you will be in violation if you open the system. You can screw with the electrical components all you want, but don’t boo hoo to us when you find that you’ve cost yourself even more grief than you had, unless of course you’re ready to dish out that $100/hr. I’d be willing to bet that over half of the circuit boards and what-not that are sold to homeowners weren’t the real problem. Why waste your money on "parts swapping" when in doubt. If it wasn’t the board we hvac people will make it good, you OTOH are stuck with it when you buy it yourself. Especially when 9 times out of ten they think it’s the thermostat. "I set it on 72 degrees and it never gets below 78. That thermostat is BAD!!!"

Think LUX — Tekkie

Response:

050624 1504 – cowboy posted: Don’t go to alt.hvac. The prima donna "HVAC Specialists" there don’t like to impart their wisdom on mere homeowners for less than $100/hr. Call another company and get them to come out and do the thermal calculations. I went over there, that Paul guy is a just some asswipe who likes to tell everyone to "Fuck off" and "Blow me"

I believe the Faggots over in Faggotsville are celebrating Gay Pride Week…

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I just bought a house and had the previous owner replace the heater. I had it serviced yesterday and the technician indicated that they installed a heater which was too big for the house (5 tons versus 3 tons). He tried to sell me a smaller one. Anyone know the imact? Should this be a problem?

Response:

A too-large unit might cut on and off frequently because it’s so powerful it never gets to run, possibly allowing the far reaches of your house to stay too cold, and the on/off action may be considered annoying. If true, you’re not going to rip it out, but you could capitalize by adding ducts and returns in additional places to do a tip-top job of circulating nice air everywhere. Then you’ll have a better system than most people who have a few centrally located ducts and maybe one central return.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just bought a house and had the previous owner replace the heater. I had it serviced yesterday and the technician indicated that they installed a heater which was too big for the house (5 tons versus 3 tons). He tried to sell me a smaller one. Anyone know the imact? Should this be a problem?

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Path: livia.sol.net!news.moreusenet.net!spool0-atlnga!news.moreusenet.net!newsfee ds.sol.net!dspool1-1.atl.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.new shosting.com!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cn99.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.home.repair Organization: Bentium Ltd. (CN99) Lines: 1 NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.159.235.36 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Xref: livia.sol.net control.cancel:15945833

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Don’t go to alt.hvac. The prima donna "HVAC Specialists" there don’t like to impart their wisdom on mere homeowners for less than $100/hr. Call another company and get them to come out and do the thermal calculations.

Response:

Yeah, but some of us frequent both places. AND some of them are a**holes….

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HVAC Specialist = Prima Donna ??? That is an oxymoron if I’ve ever heard one. Why do you think the DIY craze has caught on, so you don’t have to pay Moe, Larry, and Curly $100/hr.

Response:

HVAC Specialist = Prima Donna ??? That is an oxymoron if I’ve ever heard one. Why do you think the DIY craze has caught on, so you don’t have to pay Moe, Larry, and Curly $100/hr.

Home owners should be aware that without EPA certs you will be in violation if you open the system. You can screw with the electrical components all you want, but don’t boo hoo to us when you find that you’ve cost yourself even more grief than you had, unless of course you’re ready to dish out that $100/hr. I’d be willing to bet that over half of the circuit boards and what-not that are sold to homeowners weren’t the real problem. Why waste your money on "parts swapping" when in doubt. If it wasn’t the board we hvac people will make it good, you OTOH are stuck with it when you buy it yourself. There are many simple tasks that homeowners can take on themselves, and there are even several companies whose web sites give a rundown of things for the homeowner to check before calling. The majority of hvac problems are however well beyond most homeowners abilities. If money and health are no object, and your marriage is so stable that the old lady doesn’t care how long she’ll be without air, then by all means, DIY. hvacrmedic

Response:

Don’t go to alt.hvac. The prima donna "HVAC Specialists" there don’t like to impart their wisdom on mere homeowners for less than $100/hr.

There are some experts there who are willing to give advice to home owners, and a few years ago one even described in great detail how I could replace the evaporator drip pan in my Rheem/Ruud packaged rooftop unit (not trivial — much of the cabinet had to be disasembled). The real problem with the alt.hvac newsgroup is that the person who calls himself the founder and moderator is a very angry person who not only dislikes questions from home owners but has been hostile even to s many HVAC professionals as well. www.hvac-talk.com is a better place for home owners to ask questions. Very friendly

Response:

without EPA certs you will be in violation if you open the system. You can screw with the electrical components all you want, but don’t boo hoo to us when you find that you’ve cost yourself even more grief than you had, unless of course you’re ready to dish out that $100/hr. I’d be willing to bet that over half of the circuit boards and what-not that are sold to homeowners weren’t the real problem. Why waste your money on "parts swapping" when in doubt. If it wasn’t the board we hvac people will make it good, you OTOH are stuck with it when you buy it yourself.

Especially when 9 times out of ten they think it’s the thermostat. "I set it on 72 degrees and it never gets below 78. That thermostat is BAD!!!"

Response:

The real problem with the alt.hvac newsgroup is that the person who calls himself the founder and moderator is a very angry person who not only dislikes questions from home owners but has been hostile even to s many HVAC professionals as well.

there have been hostile comments made to me here, when I pointed out that a couple of the better known "hvac experts" in this group didn’t know what they were doing, and needed to get a book the discussion in question was flushing of the system, which can be the difference in a new compressor lasting 2-3 years or lasting 20, they apparently don’t want homeowners to know how to spot the rare hvac tech that really knows what they are doing! apparently, the stooges here need that compressor sale every few years to make their boat payment, and would like to suppress information beneficial to homeowners, they tried to tell me that flushing was bad, etc. even though I have been an HVAC engineer for 30 years, and a consultant to some of the largest HVAC companies, including Trane, Carrier, & Lennox one even "plonked" me! that’s OK, no free consulting for him anymore!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – without EPA certs you will be in violation if you open the system. You can screw with the electrical components all you want, but don’t boo hoo to us when you find that you’ve cost yourself even more grief than you had, unless of course you’re ready to dish out that $100/hr. I’d be willing to bet that over half of the circuit boards and what-not that are sold to homeowners weren’t the real problem. Why waste your money on "parts swapping" when in doubt. If it wasn’t the board we hvac people will make it good, you OTOH are stuck with it when you buy it yourself. Especially when 9 times out of ten they think it’s the thermostat. "I set it on 72 degrees and it never gets below 78. That thermostat is BAD!!!"

LOL. I get alot of those. hvacrmedic

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I went over there, that Paul guy is a just some asswipe who likes to tell everyone to "Fuck off" and "Blow me" he apparently has some anger issues, poor bastard just killfile the jerkoffs, then the newsgroup reads real good PS – no one there is the "founder" or "moderator", in a non-moderated newsgroup, everyone is an equal! cheers!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t go to alt.hvac. The prima donna "HVAC Specialists" there don’t like to impart their wisdom on mere homeowners for less than $100/hr. There are some experts there who are willing to give advice to home owners, and a few years ago one even described in great detail how I could replace the evaporator drip pan in my Rheem/Ruud packaged rooftop unit (not trivial — much of the cabinet had to be disasembled).

I set a Rheem heat pump last year for a ‘modular home.’ On that unit, the plastic pan could be slid out by removing less than a half-dozen screws.

Response:

There are some experts there [in alt.hvac] who are willing to give advice to home owners, and a few years ago one even described in great detail how I could replace the evaporator drip pan in my Rheem/Ruud packaged rooftop unit (not trivial — much of the cabinet had to be disasembled). I set a Rheem heat pump last year for a ‘modular home.’ On that unit, the plastic pan could be slid out by removing less than a half-dozen screws.

It was a rooftop built about 10-15 years ago. I had to remove both top panels from the cabinet and remove several screws from the divider in the middle that separated the indoor part (evaporator, blower) from the outdoor part (compressor, condenser) so that the evaporator could be lifted and the corroded steel drip pan slid out from under it. A couple of years later, the evaporator developed so many pinhole leaks that we decide to replace the whole unit with a different brand. The replacement has had a cracked plastic evaporator pan (easy to replace), a contactor that once stuck in the "on" position, and a blower timer that twice failed (replaced with Trane timer), all covered under warranty.

Response:

Living in a 5th Wheel

admin — Mon, 03 Feb 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Does anyone know which States if any west of the Mississippi River allow full time living in personal land owned. …. Almost all of them will allow you to do this,…

AFAIK no *states* say you cannot live in a trailer; it is a local county or town issue that depends on how your land is zoned. You can prolly live in a temporary structure (your 5r) on aggie-zoned farm, provided you satisfy water and sewage regulations, but not on "residential" property. Check with the local gummymint about it before buying.

Response:

@direcway.com: I know Texas has pretty loose zoning laws. I get the impression that NM is also pretty loose. Many county zoning laws in Minnesota are available on the web. I would recommend he pick a county in whatever state might meet his needs and shoot the county auditor a query if they don’t have an ordinance he can research. SD is a good starting point since they have loose rules about residency and no state income tax. Land in the western prairie regions is pretty cheap right now.

In Texas, Counties have no power to establish, much less enforce, zoning. Although a few Municipalities do use zoning, most don’t. In general, once you’re outside the City Limits, you’re on your own unless your Deed Restrictions (if any) limit you.

Response:

(Boelkowj) writes: Does anyone know which States if any west of the Mississippi River allow full time living in personal land owned. It seems that once you are hooked up to the "grid" this becomes a problem. Even living self-contained (dry camp) becomes a problem if you live there for more than 14 days per month as I understand state law. I’d like to purchase an acre or two where we can keep our 5th wheel all year round and live in it 6 months each year. I realize one can take their chances but I woundn’t like to be kicked off. Thanks.

We have friends in Arizona who kept a travel trailer up in Show Low with no hookups for years. They used it in the summer time. They owned their land, packed in fresh water and packed out black water. Charged the trailer batteries with solar. Janet The Road Princess (I only edit and spell-check for profit) fix the return address, please

Response:

Does anyone know which States if any west of the Mississippi River allow full time living in personal land owned. It seems that once you are hooked up to the "grid" this becomes a problem. Even living self-contained (dry camp) becomes a problem if you live there for more than 14 days per month as I understand state law. I’d like to purchase an acre or two where we can keep our 5th wheel all year round and live in it 6 months each year. I realize one can take their chances but I woundn’t like to be kicked off. Thanks.

Check out South Dakota. They had some cheap parcels on e-Bay recently. 40 acres for $14,000 north of Sturgis. They need the business. LZ

Response:

I think you will have to get down to the local county level and deal with local zoning. I’m sure there are counties in Fl with zoning which allows this. — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know which States if any west of the Mississippi River allow full time living in personal land owned. It seems that once you are hooked up to the "grid" this becomes a problem. Even living self-contained (dry camp) becomes a problem if you live there for more than 14 days per month as I understand state law. I’d like to purchase an acre or two where we can keep our 5th wheel all year round and live in it 6 months each year. I realize one can take their chances but I woundn’t like to be kicked off. Thanks. I think you will have to get down to the local county level and deal with local zoning. I’m sure there are counties in Fl with zoning which allows this. — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com

But then he would either have to move Florida or the Mississippi River. Darned inconvenient. LZ

Response:

Sorry- I was unaware that there were not any counties or local zoning boards west of the big muddy. You learn something new every day. — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com

Response:

Well, eerrrr, yeah. One is that what Florida may allow won’t be relevant in other states. I don’t know how Florida does it but most states set minimum zoning requirements and all counties must be at least as strict or more so. Townships and villages may then add more restrictions. For instance in our local township in MN, a mobile or modular home less than 24′ wide gets a 2 year permit with a bond being required. When the 2 years is up, either you move it or lose the bond. Also, good luck in getting a renewed permit. I know Texas has pretty loose zoning laws. I get the impression that NM is also pretty loose. Many county zoning laws in Minnesota are available on the web. I would recommend he pick a county in whatever state might meet his needs and shoot the county auditor a query if they don’t have an ordinance he can research. SD is a good starting point since they have loose rules about residency and no state income tax. Land in the western prairie regions is pretty cheap right now. LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com

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Almost all of them will allow you to do this, few will limit you to two weeks, but… You will have better luck with rural counties then urban. But even then the county will probably have some sort of zoning and health regulations that you will have to abide by. They will be less worried about power, but more concerned that you are getting good water and not polluting. If you want to get in trouble in almost any area, try dumping your black water into anything other then an approved system.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Boelkowj) writes: Does anyone know which States if any west of the Mississippi River allow full time living in personal land owned. It seems that once you are hooked up to the "grid" this becomes a problem. Even living self-contained (dry camp) becomes a problem if you live there for more than 14 days per month as I understand state law. I’d like to purchase an acre or two where we can keep our 5th wheel all year round and live in it 6 months each year. I realize one can take their chances but I woundn’t like to be kicked off. Thanks. We have friends in Arizona who kept a travel trailer up in Show Low with no hookups for years. They used it in the summer time. They owned their land, packed in fresh water and packed out black water. Charged the trailer batteries with solar. Janet The Road Princess (I only edit and spell-check for profit) fix the return address, please

You might check out some of these towns that are dying on the vine so to speak. Sometimes a lot with an old building on it is cheap. Check out the old mining towns of Arivaca or Chloride in AZ or Mountainair, Willard or Corona in NM. LZ

Response:

Buy house JUST for the land?

admin — Sun, 29 Sep 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Sure size matters, but I was reacting to the OP’s general attitude regarding what sounded like a perfectly serviceable house. But it was so long ago, I can’t be sure.

Well, I’d previously been designing my own three bedroom house, trying to keep it as small as possible (low taxes) and still be serviceable. The one I was looking at (just for land) was ~900SF. I think my wife’s closet is larger than that. Keeping in mind that the smallest house I could design for three people (comfortable, that is) was about 1400 SF, I think 900 is pushing it just a bit. But I don’t consider 1400 feet to be a mansion by any stretch of the imagination. 2000 SF (which is about the largest we’d build) is pretty roomy for three people . . . but still not a mansion. IMHO -Dave

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a local friend built a house on her lot several years ago and purchased a mobile home to live in while they built. they rent out the mobile home now. kate http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~kolina/advantages-of-formula.html

That would be a wonderful idea. I wish I was a carpenter . . . I’d LOVE to build one myself. I don’t know enough about that stuff to make it worth my effort, though. But I’m having fun designing houses on the computer. -Dave

Response:

Sure size matters, but I was reacting to the OP’s general attitude regarding what sounded like a perfectly serviceable house. But it was so long ago, I can’t be sure. Well, I’d previously been designing my own three bedroom house, trying to keep it as small as possible (low taxes) and still be serviceable. The one I was looking at (just for land) was ~900SF. I think my wife’s closet is larger than that.

That’s pretty darn small, but doable. A long time ago I lived in a 2-bedroom apt that was 750 sf and reasonably comfortable. Keeping in mind that the smallest house I could design for three people (comfortable, that is) was about 1400 SF, I think 900 is pushing it just a bit. But I don’t consider 1400 feet to be a mansion by any stretch of the imagination. 2000 SF (which is about the largest we’d build) is pretty roomy for three people . . . but still not a mansion. IMHO -Dave

Those are certainly not mansions. I recently did a spec 3-bedroom that was only 1150 sf. It was not something I like to do but it was livable. Is it possible to properly add on to that 900sf place or is it thrashed? I once owned a 650sf 1-bedroom built in 1920. There was no easy way to add on without spending more than it was worth so I know how adding on is not always a good option.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, you also need to adjust your thinking on space. If it’s a 3-bedroom, it’s a 3-bedroom. If you’re used to mansions, perhaps you should go out and pay for the advise you’re getting here. Maybe then you’d listen to it The doing due diligence part of your post is very important however, the OP doesn’t necessarily have to adjust his thinking on space. Trust me, a 3 bedroom house is not always a three bedroom house. If you have a couple bedrooms that are 7 x 9 ft it’s definately not the same as one that is 12 x 14. Or worse, get really small bedrooms AND no closets. The house I bought two years ago was advertised as a three bedroom. One is 7 x 9, one is decent size and I’m still looking for the third one. Supposedly this house has a video room too but I

Didn’t you see that VHS tape in the closet? You *assumed* they meant a room for watching video, they meant a room *on* video. — David Wallis

Response:

BTW, you also need to adjust your thinking on space. If it’s a 3-bedroom, it’s a 3-bedroom. If you’re used to mansions, perhaps you should go out and pay for the advise you’re getting here. Maybe then you’d listen to it The doing due diligence part of your post is very important however, the OP doesn’t necessarily have to adjust his thinking on space. Trust me, a 3 bedroom house is not always a three bedroom house. If you have a couple bedrooms that are 7 x 9 ft it’s definately not the same as one that is 12 x 14. Or worse, get really small bedrooms AND no closets.

If there is no closet, it is technically not a bedroom. The house I bought two years ago was advertised as a three bedroom. One is 7 x 9, one is decent size and I’m still looking for the third one. Supposedly this house has a video room too but I haven’t found it either. LOL Sometimes size does matter.

Sure size matters, but I was reacting to the OP’s general attitude regarding what sounded like a perfectly serviceable house. But it was so long ago, I can’t be sure.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, I’d wondered about that. But then, the house is SOoooooooo small, that’s probably why it’s so cheap. I mean, I wouldn’t recommend it for more than one person, even though it’s a three bedroom. Oddly enough, right after I saw the ad, we watched a TV show called "Haunting in Georgia" or something like that. It was about a young couple who were looking for their first house. They found a nice little ranch style house that had recently been ABANDONED in the sense that the owners left it really suddenly. Then of course they moved in and were supposedly visited by lots of ghosts . . . some of them not so nice. Anyway, then I think about this little ranch built in 1999 (barely broken in, probably), and how it’s being abandoned and selling for a ridiculously low price . . .

well, Dave, if it’s haunted you probably can’t just tear it down or you will have some *very* upset ghosts. I’d suggest some time on alt.ghosts or whatever group exists, in order to find out how to make the ghosts happy first. Or maybe they hate the house too and want you to tear it down. :-P We looked at houses in a neighborhood that was geared towards tear-downs- the one empty lot was cheap, but it was on the intersection of two high tension power lines and overlooked a bus parking lot. the houses in our price range were *nasty* and we couldnt’ see spending the money on the house, scraping it and putting up a new one, all the while paying another mortgage. The houses were definitely selling for more than just the price of land. In addition, at least in Boulder, and I’m sure in other places- it’s easier to get a permit for a remodel than for a scrape and rebuild. I’ve seen houses that were being essentially rebuilt around a single wall remaining from the previous house. I would suspect that wouldn’t be an issue if the house were modular, but that might be worth checking into also. a local friend built a house on her lot several years ago and purchased a mobile home to live in while they built. they rent out the mobile home now. kate http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~kolina/advantages-of-formula.html

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"donate" the existing house to her, seeing that she is single and will likely never marry.

Your wife got all the looks in that family, eh?

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Your wife got all the looks in that family, eh?

Yup, and the right sexual preference . . . -Dave

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Your wife got all the looks in that family, eh? Yup, and the right sexual preference . . . -Dave

ROFL…. Thanks for having a good sense of humor…

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The doing due diligence part of your post is very important however, the OP doesn’t necessarily have to adjust his thinking on space. Trust me, a 3 bedroom house is not always a three bedroom house. If you have a couple bedrooms that are 7 x 9 ft it’s definately not the same as one that is 12 x 14. Or worse, get really small bedrooms AND no closets. The house I bought two years ago was advertised as a three bedroom. One is 7 x 9, one is decent size and I’m still looking for the third one. Supposedly this house has a video room too but I haven’t found it either. LOL Sometimes size does matter. Susan

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OK, we’re looking to build a house soon, a 2000 SF 3-bedroom, 2 bath ranch. Problem is, land in the area we want to build is prohibitively expensive. Well I found a really cheap 3-bedroom, 2 bath ranch, built in 1999 (probably a modular, not sure though). I wouldn’t be happy living in it. Nor would the wife, as it is comically tiny. (less than half the size of the house we’re building). However, it is about the same size as the 2-bedroom apartment we’re currently renting, and the interesting thing is . . . It’s on a 4 acre lot!!! I haven’t looked at the house yet, but the asking price for the house and land is about 50% of what the land alone is worth. Unfortunately, it is just high enough that if I bought it, I wouldn’t be able to afford to build our house right away. So I was thinking buy the house, live in it five or ten years (it’s small, but it’s 1999, so it can’t be TERRIBLE, I’m thinking), then refinance for the cash to build OUR house. Then clear out another 1/2 acre in the back yard, build the house THERE, tear down the original house and have a large front yard. Advantages: – We’d be living in the area we want to live in IMMEDIATELY, and would not have to wait for a house to be built. – We’d be building equity of some kind immediately, instead of throwing it all away in rent each month Disadvantages: – We’d have to have the original house removed eventually (another $20K or so, at least, I’m guessing) – We’d have to obviously get the proper permits to build the new house on a lot with an existing house. (Can this be done AT ALL?) – Would the bank allow us to destroy a house that (technically) wasn’t yet paid for? They’d be financing the new house also, so I’m not sure . . . What are the pitfalls I’m missing here? Anyone have a reason that I definitely should NOT do it? Anyone know why it wouldn’t work? -Dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, we’re looking to build a house soon, a 2000 SF 3-bedroom, 2 bath ranch. Problem is, land in the area we want to build is prohibitively expensive. Well I found a really cheap 3-bedroom, 2 bath ranch, built in 1999 (probably a modular, not sure though). I wouldn’t be happy living in it. Nor would the wife, as it is comically tiny. (less than half the size of the house we’re building). However, it is about the same size as the 2-bedroom apartment we’re currently renting, and the interesting thing is . . . It’s on a 4 acre lot!!! I haven’t looked at the house yet, but the asking price for the house and land is about 50% of what the land alone is worth. Unfortunately, it is just high enough that if I bought it, I wouldn’t be able to afford to build our house right away. So I was thinking buy the house, live in it five or ten years (it’s small, but it’s 1999, so it can’t be TERRIBLE, I’m thinking), then refinance for the cash to build OUR house. Then clear out another 1/2 acre in the back yard, build the house THERE, tear down the original house and have a large front yard. Advantages: – We’d be living in the area we want to live in IMMEDIATELY, and would not have to wait for a house to be built. – We’d be building equity of some kind immediately, instead of throwing it all away in rent each month Disadvantages: – We’d have to have the original house removed eventually (another $20K or so, at least, I’m guessing) – We’d have to obviously get the proper permits to build the new house on a lot with an existing house. (Can this be done AT ALL?) – Would the bank allow us to destroy a house that (technically) wasn’t yet paid for? They’d be financing the new house also, so I’m not sure . . . What are the pitfalls I’m missing here? Anyone have a reason that I definitely should NOT do it? Anyone know why it wouldn’t work? -Dave

Talk to City Hall or whoever controls building/zoning. I can’t even think of all the issues they might raise… Jim

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, we’re looking to build a house soon, a 2000 SF 3-bedroom, 2 bath ranch. Problem is, land in the area we want to build is prohibitively expensive. Well I found a really cheap 3-bedroom, 2 bath ranch, built in 1999 (probably a modular, not sure though). I wouldn’t be happy living in it. Nor would the wife, as it is comically tiny. (less than half the size of the house we’re building). However, it is about the same size as the 2-bedroom apartment we’re currently renting, and the interesting thing is . . . It’s on a 4 acre lot!!! I haven’t looked at the house yet, but the asking price for the house and land is about 50% of what the land alone is worth. Unfortunately, it is just high enough that if I bought it, I wouldn’t be able to afford to build our house right away. So I was thinking buy the house, live in it five or ten years (it’s small, but it’s 1999, so it can’t be TERRIBLE, I’m thinking), then refinance for the cash to build OUR house. Then clear out another 1/2 acre in the back yard, build the house THERE, tear down the original house and have a large front yard. Advantages: – We’d be living in the area we want to live in IMMEDIATELY, and would not have to wait for a house to be built. – We’d be building equity of some kind immediately, instead of throwing it all away in rent each month Disadvantages: – We’d have to have the original house removed eventually (another $20K or so, at least, I’m guessing) – We’d have to obviously get the proper permits to build the new house on a lot with an existing house. (Can this be done AT ALL?) – Would the bank allow us to destroy a house that (technically) wasn’t yet paid for? They’d be financing the new house also, so I’m not sure . . . What are the pitfalls I’m missing here? Anyone have a reason that I definitely should NOT do it? Anyone know why it wouldn’t ork? -Dave

We’re in the middle of what you’re considering. It took us 14 years to get to this point, but my wife didn’t work full-time until our youngest child started middle school. We’ve lived in an 80 year-old smaller (1300 sq-ft) farm house. We’re putting up a 2600 sq-ft modular Cape Cod, 3 bedrooms, 3-1/2 baths, 1600 sq-ft basement. My plan is to dismantle the old house so as to get materials to build a garage and/or finish the basement. As far as the permits and the financing, that will depend on your local ordinances. No problem here. We have enough equity in the land, with the improvements of a new well and septic when we moved in and a pole barn. Financial types can work numbers to show you a likely loss, but a lot of it comes down to how much do you like the land? E-mail if you want and I’ll try to get more detailed and answer questions more specifically. Ken

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Dave So I was thinking buy the house, live in it five or ten years Dave (it’s small, but it’s 1999, so it can’t be TERRIBLE, I’m Dave thinking), then refinance for the cash to build OUR house. Then Dave clear out another 1/2 acre in the back yard, build the house Dave THERE, tear down the original house and have a large front yard. Sounds like a wise plan to me. There’s only one pitfall I can think of, and that is that perhaps the local authorities won’t let you have two houses on the lot at the same time. And even if they do now, they might not do so at the time you want to build. —

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a large front yard. Sounds like a wise plan to me. There’s only one pitfall I can think of, and that is that perhaps the local authorities won’t let you have two houses on the lot at the same time. And even if they do now, they might not do so at the time you want to build.

Actually, reading all the responses to this thread got me thinking . . . we weren’t originally planning to build a garage. But eventually, we’ll have three vehicles and a couple ATVs. (already have the three vehicles). The current house would make a rather large-ish 4 car garage, if it was gutted out. I wonder if the town would be happy if we converted the current house to a garage? Have to make some phone calls on Monday. -Dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a large front yard. Sounds like a wise plan to me. There’s only one pitfall I can think of, and that is that perhaps the local authorities won’t let you have two houses on the lot at the same time. And even if they do now, they might not do so at the time you want to build. Actually, reading all the responses to this thread got me thinking . . . we weren’t originally planning to build a garage. But eventually, we’ll have three vehicles and a couple ATVs. (already have the three vehicles). The current house would make a rather large-ish 4 car garage, if it was gutted out. I wonder if the town would be happy if we converted the current house to a garage? Have to make some phone calls on Monday. -Dave

Nobody else suggested this, so I will- if the existing house is truly a modular, and not a POS, you may be able to SELL the damn thing when you don’t need it anymore. A modular, by design, is easier to move than a stick-built. Just undo all the seams they did when it was delivered, and put it back on the truck or removable axles. You won’t get much, but it would probably be cheaper than paying to demolish it on site. All depends on how it is structured, and if there is a good approach to pull it back out. You could then demo the foundation, drop it in the hole, and grade it over. Unlikely you would be able to convert a modular to a garage any cheaper than building a new one. Unless it was really a prefab panel house on a slab, there isn’t enough structure there to hold cars up. If zoning board has a letter from you promising to sell and remove existing house within, say, 120 days of new house being occupied, they may be likelier to give a zoning variance, if needed. aem sends….

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Talk to City Hall or whoever controls building/zoning. I can’t even think of all the issues they might raise…

What???? Why would there be any particularly surprising "issues"? Any time one contemplates building, zoning, setbacks, wetlands, etc must be considered. However, here is a recently built house so its not like it is historic, unlikely to be non-conforming to zoning and existing only by "grandfathering", unlikely to be dependent on grandfathering for wetlands, etc….. What is the big deal???? A four acre lot, I doubt even the biggest imaginable house would have a lot ceverage or setback problem. It is a single family lot now, it will be a single family lot under his proposed use, why would there be any unsual issues? -v.

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Do some deep checking. There has to be a reason why it is selling so low. If it truly is priced at 50% of land value, a large caution sign lights up. Zoning?. Haz mat spill?. Ex drug house?

This is good advice. However, the problem might simply be that the ‘99 Modular home is too small/cheap for the area, and most buyers would want to knock it down and build a real house, and thus the cost to demolish/remove the current house is factored into the offering price. I’ve seen this fairly often in areas where homes are bought primarily to be demolished to build a bigger/better home in their place.

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–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do some deep checking. There has to be a reason why it is selling so low. If it truly is priced at 50% of land value, a large caution sign lights up. Zoning?. Haz mat spill?. Ex drug house? This is good advice. However, the problem might simply be that the ‘99 Modular home is too small/cheap for the area, and most buyers would want to knock it down and build a real house, and thus the cost to demolish/remove the current house is factored into the offering price. I’ve seen this fairly often in areas where homes are bought primarily to be demolished to build a bigger/better home in their place.

Response:

Do some deep checking. There has to be a reason why it is selling so low. If it truly is priced at 50% of land value, a large caution sign lights up. Zoning?. Haz mat spill?. Ex drug house? This is good advice. However, the problem might simply be that the ‘99 Modular home is too small/cheap for the area, and most buyers would want to knock it down and build a real house, and thus the cost to demolish/remove the current house is factored into the offering price. I’ve seen this fairly often in areas where homes are bought primarily to be demolished to build a bigger/better home in their place.

I have never seen a tear down lot go for any significant discount vs. a vacant lot. As a matter of fact, there can be advantages to a tear down. Here in CA we have developer fees charged by school districts that be as high as $12.09/sf. However, if you demolish you get a credit for what is already on the site. So, if you tear down (or move off) a 1200sf house and build 3200sf you pay fees on 2000sf. Besides, demolition is not very expensive and if the place is habitable (or close to it) you can often find someone to who will take it off your hands for no charge.

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: I have never seen a tear down lot go for any significant discount vs. a : vacant lot. As a matter of fact, there can be advantages to a tear down. That my worry, Why does the OP think he’s getting a deal. I doing a similar thing in that I bought a 10 acre farm with an old house on it. Parts of it are nice but it has some short comings and needs an addition. My research indicates that for what I might spend getting a custom addition "merged" onto the house that I could build an entire new house next door and connect them via a passageway. Check the regs about "mother-in-law" apartments to see if they are legal. You might have to gut the current kitchen but you coulf turn the existing house into guest/family rooms and build your dream home next to it. John Eaton

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That my worry, Why does the OP think he’s getting a deal. I doing a similar thing in that I bought a 10 acre farm with an old house on it. Parts of it are nice but it has some short comings and needs an addition. My research indicates that for what I might spend getting a custom addition "merged" onto the house that I could build an entire new house next door and connect them via a passageway. Check the regs about "mother-in-law" apartments to see if they are legal. You might have to gut the current kitchen but you coulf turn the existing house into guest/family rooms and build your dream home next to it. John Eaton

Lots of good advice. Another thought that occurred to us is that my wife has a younger sister who’s still renting, also. Maybe we could "donate" the existing house to her, seeing that she is single and will likely never marry. All she’d have to do is buy a small plot of land, have a basement/foundation dug, then pay someone to reset the house on her own property. Tiny three bedroom house for ~$50K*, about 15 years old? Not bad for one person . . . -Dave * My estimate, based on $20K land, $20K land prep, $10K moving and reset? But she’d have to find a really CHEAP piece of land, obviously.

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Yeah, I’d wondered about that. But then, the house is SOoooooooo small, that’s probably why it’s so cheap. I mean, I wouldn’t recommend it for more than one person, even though it’s a three bedroom. Oddly enough, right after I saw the ad, we watched a TV show called "Haunting in Georgia" or something like that. It was about a young couple who were looking for their first house. They found a nice little ranch style house that had recently been ABANDONED in the sense that the owners left it really suddenly. Then of course they moved in and were supposedly visited by lots of ghosts . . . some of them not so nice. Anyway, then I think about this little ranch built in 1999 (barely broken in, probably), and how it’s being abandoned and selling for a ridiculously low price . . . -Dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do some deep checking. There has to be a reason why it is selling so low. If it truly is priced at 50% of land value, a large caution sign lights up. Zoning?. Haz mat spill?. Ex drug house? Harry K Harry K Yeah, I’d wondered about that. But then, the house is SOoooooooo small, that’s probably why it’s so cheap. I mean, I wouldn’t recommend it for more than one person, even though it’s a three bedroom.

There are no "buts" about it. You say it’s priced at 50% of land value and you try to justify that by saying the house is this or that. Open your eyes and be honest to yourself. You must conduct due diligence otherwise you’ll be here down the road crying about a problem you’re having the property you bought. BTW, you also need to adjust your thinking on space. If it’s a 3-bedroom, it’s a 3-bedroom. If you’re used to mansions, perhaps you should go out and pay for the advise you’re getting here. Maybe then you’d listen to it.

Response:

Purchasing a Modular Home — Good Idea?

admin — Sun, 14 Apr 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Modular Home Question:

After some research I found out this was in fact a manufactured home not modular. From what I read the manufactured home does not hold their value as well as a modular and are normally cheaper in construction. Based on my new findings I backed out of the deal. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife and I have been looking for sometime for a home in the Santa Barbara area. Today we located a house which looked and felt great, subsequently we made an offer on the home. We found out later it was modular. Im curious if a modular home holds it’s value as well as something constructed at the site? Is there any difference when it comes to value? It looks like a house, feels like a house, etc. It’s a $580,000 home so we are wanting to make sure it’s the right home. That is about the average home price for something in the Santa Barbara area. Thanks..

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My wife and I have been looking for sometime for a home in the Santa Barbara area. Today we located a house which looked and felt great, subsequently we made an offer on the home. We found out later it was modular. Im curious if a modular home holds it’s value as well as something constructed at the site? Is there any difference when it comes to value? It looks like a house, feels like a house, etc. It’s a $580,000 home so we are wanting to make sure it’s the right home. That is about the average home price for something in the Santa Barbara area. Thanks..

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Go with it. Once the home is on the foundation and finished up, it’s the same as a stick built (as you’ve seen). Only difference is the modular is probably higher quality (built assembly line fashion in a climate controlled environment) and is over built (because of the need to transport from factory to foundation) compared to it’s stick-built cousins. As for holding it’s value, I can’t see where it would make a difference, but I can’t say from personal experience. I can say that mine cost me around $550K a year ago, and it’s recently been appraised at $650k. Obviously the realtors here in the east don’t have a problem with modulars. : ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My wife and I have been looking for sometime for a home in the Santa Barbara area. Today we located a house which looked and felt great, subsequently we made an offer on the home. We found out later it was modular. Im curious if a modular home holds it’s value as well as something constructed at the site? Is there any difference when it comes to value? It looks like a house, feels like a house, etc. It’s a $580,000 home so we are wanting to make sure it’s the right home. That is about the average home price for something in the Santa Barbara area. Thanks..

Response:

How to buy a modular home?

admin — Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Don’t we all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s just it, I wish I could buy the one for 33% less*,…

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What I mean by floor covering is . . . if you want to upgrade from carpet to (for example) hardwood, it can be done for so much per square foot at the time you order the house. But if you hire someone else to come in and rip up the carpet long after you’ve moved into the house, the cost is about half. And, it’s not like they’re going to give you a discount for delivering the house with NO carpet installed, so you might as well take the carpet and use it until it wears out in a few months or so. (!) I hadn’t thought about the LV ‘drops’ on the outside wall. Will have to figure them into the plans before I order the house. For the interior walls, I’d much rather do the work myself. That’s the only way I know for certain the job will be done correctly. -Dave — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou".

(snip)

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That’s just it, though. The price I’m comparing the other homes to is a price for a home built in the area I’m looking to build in. Therefore, I think regional differences can be ruled out as the cause of any price discrepancy. I’m going to go visit one of the modular home factories soon, just for the heckuvit mainly. Maybe someone there can help me. -Dave — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tell him what *you* are willing to pay, and why *you* feel that is a fair price. It seems like you’re looking for people here to side with you that there is no reason a dealer should charge more for a house than what the manufacturer recommends. However, I think most people realize that the same house in 5 different markets will have 5 very different prices. You can’t expect any home manufacturer to quote an MSRP that is nationally applicable. — Sorry, no catchy phrase today

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Are you sure you are comparing apples to apples? "Similar" does not equate to "Identical", especially when talking about something as complex as a house. When I started to purchase my modular, I was like you and thought it would be easy to compare. Ha, Ha. Once I got down to the actual supplies and techniques, then things weren’t so clear. Are both units using the same brand siding? How about windows? I upgraded mine to Anderson, but this is not something you could tell without looking closely at the window. Likewise, how about the floor coverings? Carpet? Multiple grades are available from the same manufacturer, let alone different manufacturers. Ditto for vinyl and wood. What size electric service does it come with? The list goes on and on. I hear you when you say you don’t want to overpay, but I think you’re working yourself into a needless ulcer. Find the model with the features you like, go in as a informed consumer and bargain hard, then sit back and watch things take shape. If you’re still worried, then attack the problem from the other side of the equation. Think of the higher quality and lower price you paid for your house, and compare it to the other chumps that bought a stick-built. ;) DeadFred PS Look very hard at the person who will be doing the set, and coordinating the finishing work. This is the area that is rife for screw-ups, cons, and/or just plain incompetence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry if this is a bit wordy . . . The wife and I have decided to build a modular home soon. What I need to know is, how do you determine a fair price for the house itself? The way I see it, these homes are built in a factory, so they SHOULD have a MSRP listed somewhere, shouldn’t they? A window sticker like cars use would be nice, but I guess that’s asking too much? I know that modular homes can be modified to your own specifications (and thus the cost would increase), but I’m talking about standard floorplans listed in the manufacturer’s catalog, where no modifications are needed. There should be a standard price, shouldn’t there? Here is my problem . . . I’ve already toured a few modular homes on local dealer lots, but nothing that absolutely knocked my socks off, as they all had a major problem with the floorplan, such as no way to attach a garage without paying many thousands of dollars for modifications, or no room for a den without many thousands of dollars of modifications. That is, the modular homes sitting on dealer lots would not fit my needs, but those are the only ones I’ve been able to get any price on, and I don’t even know if THOSE prices are fair, though I suspect that they aren’t. Why do I suspect that? Well, for a while we really had our heart set on one particular model made by a company called Champion. They (Champion) don’t say how much the house costs, but they DO give it a range of $50,000 to $60,000. That is, if you search for houses for $50,000, it doesn’t appear in the list, but if you do the search for $60,000, the specific model we like is listed in that range. On dealer lots though, similar floorplans (judged by square footage and features) by other manufacturers are from $69,999 to $79,999 or higher (the price that the dealer wants). These are still well within my budget for the house itself, but I can’t help but wonder at the $10-$20K (or more) discrepancy between the maximum price listed by Champion and the retail price posted by dealers for similar models by other manufacturers. How do you keep from getting ripped off when you purchase a modular home? Where do you find the price you SHOULD expect to pay? I’m just talking house cost. Land, land prep, delivery and setup charges are being considered separately. I’d rather not get ripped off to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars when I order the house though. I’m expecting I’ll probably end up ordering a standard floorplan from a catalog, as I HAVE been able to find a few that fit my needs *with no modifications*, but not on dealer’s lots. So how do I determine a fair price when I order the standard floorplan? -Dave

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Man, did you rings some bells here. Let’s start with the top. Not sure what you mean by the floor covering. If the dealer is telling you it’s more expensive to deliver with just the subfloor instead of carpeting, he’s full of BS. If he’s saying to install upgraded floor on-site, then he’s probably correct. One of the few things the blithering jackass (you can tell he’s not my favorite person) that was my GC did correctly, was to hold off on installing the hardwood floors until long after the set. Even then, there were more than a few dents/gouges/scrapes that had to be repaired. Based on my experience, I’m not sure what to tell you on the LV stuff. I had the factory put in most of the cat-5 and coax drops (around 70 drops for each), and had mixed results. It’s a major pain adding drops to the outside wall because of the insulation, and I’m glad the factory did most of them. However, they sometimes did a poor job of keeping the LV 12" from the HV, and EVERY one of the connectors had to be redone because the boneheads separated the wires back 6" from the jack. Not even close to cat-5 spec. Based on the other problems with the GC, I’m not sure if the problems were truly at the factory or the GC shithead just didn’t pass on my instructions. I guess I can’t complain because the drops came out to $4.50/drop and even with the extra work, I’m still ahead. Like you, I did all my own alarm, automation, and audio work. Only warning here is about the smoke detectors. The factory will want to supply hardwired AC interconnected smokes. If you plan instead on using smokes hooked into the alarm system, be prepared for a fight. If you’re not aware of the various issues involved, I can elaborate. If you don’t follow comp.home.automation, you should. Lots of good advice there. Visiting past clients to check out the GC sounds like the best idea to me. I didn’t do a good job of that, and got burned. The family owns lakefront property up there (Salem area), but health problems are curtailing the parents use of it. The house was literally built by drunken plumbers using salvaged materials back in the early 1900s, and there is no way it would meet any type of current code requirements. It might turn out that it would be cheaper to put a new modular on the existing foundation, than to repair it sufficiently to bring it up to meet code prior to sale. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Funny you should mention floor coverings. A lot of homes I looked at seem to prefer carpeting for most of the floor space. However, because of pets (dogs and cats, not to mention future children), I was going to insist that the home be delivered with NO carpeting . . . just vinyl and wood, depending on the room. Through talking with more than one dealer though, I came to understand that replacing the carpeting in the entire house would be a lot cheaper if I had it done AFTER I moved in. Seems the modular home manufacturers use this item to gouge you, to say the least. So I discussed it with "the boss" and now the plan is to take the home with whatever floor covering comes standard. When (not IF) the pets destroy it, then it’s time to replace it with something decent. Therefore, I’d rather have the home delivered with the cheapest floor coverings available. That is, I’d prefer it wear out quickly! :) This has the added benefit of helping us determine what areas need the better floor covering. For example, if the carpeting by the front door wears out quickly, we might go with something real durable in that area (hardwood living room?), but if the dining room floor lasts several years we might not have to spend as much money replacing the floor covering in that area, if we replace it at all. Reminds me of a story I heard on the radio about a new college that was built, but no sidewalks were installed between any of the buildings before the college opened. They waited until the grass died, showing the paths that people were walking and then they built the sidewalks where people were walking. So I don’t really care too much about the quality of floor covering that comes with the house. Other areas though, such as windows in particular . . . yeah, I really should take a closer look there. And I might have to upgrade a couple rooms (living room, den) as far as electrical service goes. If you could see my "toys", you’d understand. I plan to do miles of low-voltage wiring myself for CCTV/security, home theater connections between rooms, and computer networking, and I do have some electrician friends. So if I run into electrical problems later, it might not be as much of a problem for me as it would for some home owners. That is, I could probably do much of the work myself, with a little help. But I do understand that electrical wiring is best done before the walls are finished, so I will take a closer look there, too. Yeah, from my own research, I concluded the "set" and finishing work would be pretty important, also. I don’t know how to approach evaluating this, other than finding some homes that were assembled and finished by the same team, and talking to the owners of those homes. You wouldn’t happen to have built in New Hampshire, would you? :) Anyway, thanks for the advice. -Dave

Response:

Funny you should mention floor coverings. A lot of homes I looked at seem to prefer carpeting for most of the floor space. However, because of pets (dogs and cats, not to mention future children), I was going to insist that the home be delivered with NO carpeting . . . just vinyl and wood, depending on the room. Through talking with more than one dealer though, I came to understand that replacing the carpeting in the entire house would be a lot cheaper if I had it done AFTER I moved in. Seems the modular home manufacturers use this item to gouge you, to say the least. So I discussed it with "the boss" and now the plan is to take the home with whatever floor covering comes standard. When (not IF) the pets destroy it, then it’s time to replace it with something decent. Therefore, I’d rather have the home delivered with the cheapest floor coverings available. That is, I’d prefer it wear out quickly! :) This has the added benefit of helping us determine what areas need the better floor covering. For example, if the carpeting by the front door wears out quickly, we might go with something real durable in that area (hardwood living room?), but if the dining room floor lasts several years we might not have to spend as much money replacing the floor covering in that area, if we replace it at all. Reminds me of a story I heard on the radio about a new college that was built, but no sidewalks were installed between any of the buildings before the college opened. They waited until the grass died, showing the paths that people were walking and then they built the sidewalks where people were walking. So I don’t really care too much about the quality of floor covering that comes with the house. Other areas though, such as windows in particular . . . yeah, I really should take a closer look there. And I might have to upgrade a couple rooms (living room, den) as far as electrical service goes. If you could see my "toys", you’d understand. I plan to do miles of low-voltage wiring myself for CCTV/security, home theater connections between rooms, and computer networking, and I do have some electrician friends. So if I run into electrical problems later, it might not be as much of a problem for me as it would for some home owners. That is, I could probably do much of the work myself, with a little help. But I do understand that electrical wiring is best done before the walls are finished, so I will take a closer look there, too. Yeah, from my own research, I concluded the "set" and finishing work would be pretty important, also. I don’t know how to approach evaluating this, other than finding some homes that were assembled and finished by the same team, and talking to the owners of those homes. You wouldn’t happen to have built in New Hampshire, would you? :) Anyway, thanks for the advice. -Dave — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you sure you are comparing apples to apples? "Similar" does not equate to "Identical", especially when talking about something as complex as a house. When I started to purchase my modular, I was like you and thought it would be easy to compare. Ha, Ha. Once I got down to the actual supplies and techniques, then things weren’t so clear. Are both units using the same brand siding? How about windows? I upgraded mine to Anderson, but this is not something you could tell without looking closely at the window. Likewise, how about the floor coverings? Carpet? Multiple grades are available from the same manufacturer, let alone different manufacturers. Ditto for vinyl and wood. What size electric service does it come with? The list goes on and on. I hear you when you say you don’t want to overpay, but I think you’re working yourself into a needless ulcer. Find the model with the features you like, go in as a informed consumer and bargain hard, then sit back and watch things take shape. If you’re still worried, then attack the problem from the other side of the equation. Think of the higher quality and lower price you paid for your house, and compare it to the other chumps that bought a stick-built. ;) DeadFred PS Look very hard at the person who will be doing the set, and coordinating the finishing work. This is the area that is rife for screw-ups, cons, and/or just plain incompetence.

Response:

That’s just it, I wish I could buy the one for 33% less*, but nobody carries it. Is it possible that nobody carries it because it’s the only brand where the price is readily available to modular home consumers? Nawww, I’m probably just paranoid. No conspiracy here. :) Again, I don’t want to steal the house, I just want to pay a price for it that is not unreasonable. To me, $20K markup seems unreasonable . . . especially for a house that sells for less than $100K full retail price. But without the MSRP (or similar) figures, how do you determine the value of one deal over another? It’s different if you REALLY prefer one house over another. In that case, you buy the one you really want. But if you find two that are similar, like my 2nd and 3rd choices? (either one of which we’d be happy with, I’m sure) -Dave *And not JUST because it’s 33% less, BTW. I’d pay the SAME price for it, if I could. It is really my dream home. Nobody else carries anything like it, although they offer similar quality and size for much greater prices. The floorplan couldn’t be better if I’d laid it out myself. Yet it is nothing like anything else I’ve seen in a modular home. — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So in the end, it doesn’t matter how is cost and how much is markup, only the total is what you pay. If similar quality is available for 33% less, then buy it, why even question markups. If of 2 similar homes, one ‘cost’ $60,000 and the dealer marked it up "only" $10,000 for a total to you of $70,000, is that a better deal than one that ‘cost’ $45,000 and was marked up $20,000? (Assuming similar quality as you claim the homes that are 33% apart have.) Don’t get fixated on begrudging how much they make, the only thing that matters is what somebody is willing to sell you one for. Would you be happier in a crappy home with the satisfaction that the dealer lost money on it, than in a nice home where you’ll forever resent that a profit was made? Maybe in your case???? I do hope you find a nive home, but the only number that matters is the final installed price, and not who had what markup. -v.

Response:

Let me add that even stick-built homes aren’t the cost of lumber plus nails. I went up to see some relatives for Easter in a boarding state. I was shocked to see houses which sell for $180,000 around here (new), going for $240,000 up there (new). The lumber, nor the land, is that much more expensive. It is just what the market will bare.

Response:

… Think of it this way. If a car had a MSRP of $20,000, would you pay $27,000 for the base model with no dealer added accessories? Well, for some cars you might have to, depending on how popular they are….

Exactly! You answered your own Q! And its not a "fraud" either. I don’t see modular homes being THAT popular, though.

And if you feel that way, demonstrate it by not buying for what you deem an excessive cost. Again, how much the modular houses are marked up is pure speculation, as I haven’t been able to find enough information to determine that. But when you see two houses of similar quality, size and layout, and one is more than $20K higher (or 33%), you can’t help but wonder why.

So in the end, it doesn’t matter how is cost and how much is markup, only the total is what you pay. If similar quality is available for 33% less, then buy it, why even question markups. If of 2 similar homes, one ‘cost’ $60,000 and the dealer marked it up "only" $10,000 for a total to you of $70,000, is that a better deal than one that ‘cost’ $45,000 and was marked up $20,000? (Assuming similar quality as you claim the homes that are 33% apart have.) Don’t get fixated on begrudging how much they make, the only thing that matters is what somebody is willing to sell you one for. Would you be happier in a crappy home with the satisfaction that the dealer lost money on it, than in a nice home where you’ll forever resent that a profit was made? Maybe in your case???? I do hope you find a nive home, but the only number that matters is the final installed price, and not who had what markup. -v.

Response:

I think people are misunderstanding me. I know that a modular home dealer needs to make a profit to stay in business. That’s common sense. But $20K a pop seems just a bit excessive. If I’m right on that estimate, it seems to me like I should be able to talk that figure down, or go buy from another dealer. But if the original dealer has the house I really want, where do I find the information I need to start negotiating? Keep in mind that renegotiating the asking price is really worth the time, if the house is financed (and I don’t have 200K cash in the bank, so it will be financed). IF (big if) I’m even able to shave 10K off the price, that’s going to save me a ton of interest, as well, over the term of the mortgage. Or to look at it another way . . . IF modular home dealers are adding a $20K markup to each home, then each customer is getting screwed to the tune of $50K or so, when interest is figured in. Those numbers are off the top of my head, but they are probably not far off. As I heard one real estate agent remark, "If you really knew how much you were paying for the house, you wouldn’t buy it". -Dave — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is all market driven. I know the "mark up" on my house was originally about $30,000 (asking price minus construction loan). For example, if a stick-built house in your area is selling for $150,000, and a module home dealer can get a nearly identical modular home for $120,000, why should he not mark it up to $140,000 and pocket the $20,000. If you (or anyone) doesn’t like paying him $140,000, go buy the $150,000 home instead.

Response:

OK, while both are "manufactured" in the sense that they are built in a factory, ‘manufactured’ usually refers to what is currently called "HUD code", and what used to be called "mobile homes" or "trailers". That’s not what I’m looking for. To be honest, I’ve toured some double wide HUD codes (mobile homes, if you prefer) that I think I’d be quite happy in. You wouldn’t believe the quality of some of them. The way they are finished inside, you’d never know it was a "mobile home". But all the areas we’re willing to buy land in do not allow HUD code/mobile homes, outside of "trailer parks", which I absolutely refuse to live in. I need a modular house (not a mobile home) to be placed on a permanent foundation, and to satisfy local building codes. In our case, it’s going to have a full basement underneath. These are allowed to be built in all the areas we are looking for land in, because the finished product is just like a so-called "stick built", or a house that was built on site . . . other than the price. -Dave — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you talking about a manufactured home or a modular home? There is a world of difference. Modular homes are generally of better quality. If you are considering a manufactured home, make absolutely sure that you get a list of previous home buyers from that manufacturer. Contact these customers as to their satisfaction and ask how, if at all, the manufacturer handled problems. Manufactured homes are a big gamble unless you can find a manufacturer who takes pride in his product and stands behind it. There are a lot of shoddy products being passed off as HUD approved. The HUD approval means nothing. This is very apparent when one looks at the construction techniques used on these homes. It enough to make one wonder if HUD knows what is going on. One HUD requirement is that the workmanship should demonstrate journeyman quality. You will find that far from reality. In closing, be very careful, it could cost you more time, money and grief than could be imagined. If you are considering a modular home you may still want to do a previous buyer survey.

Response:

It is all market driven. I know the "mark up" on my house was originally about $30,000 (asking price minus construction loan). For example, if a stick-built house in your area is selling for $150,000, and a module home dealer can get a nearly identical modular home for $120,000, why should he not mark it up to $140,000 and pocket the $20,000. If you (or anyone) doesn’t like paying him $140,000, go buy the $150,000 home instead. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And while I understand that it’s up to me to determine what a fair price is and whether I want to pay it or not . . . if modular home dealers are making $20K a pop selling these things, I might have to consider a career change.

Response:

Are you talking about a manufactured home or a modular home? There is a world of difference. Modular homes are generally of better quality. If you are considering a manufactured home, make absolutely sure that you get a list of previous home buyers from that manufacturer. Contact these customers as to their satisfaction and ask how, if at all, the manufacturer handled problems. Manufactured homes are a big gamble unless you can find a manufacturer who takes pride in his product and stands behind it. There are a lot of shoddy products being passed off as HUD approved. The HUD approval means nothing. This is very apparent when one looks at the construction techniques used on these homes. It enough to make one wonder if HUD knows what is going on. One HUD requirement is that the workmanship should demonstrate journeyman quality. You will find that far from reality. In closing, be very careful, it could cost you more time, money and grief than could be imagined. If you are considering a modular home you may still want to do a previous buyer survey.

Response:

Some of the variation might have to local requirements which aren’t know initially. These might be codes or subdivision covenants or lot requirements. IMHO, if you want an exact price, you need to get very specific by nailing down (a pun?) all the variables for them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They (Champion) don’t say how much the house costs, but they DO give it a range of $50,000 to $60,000.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you talking about a manufactured home or a modular home? There is a world of difference. Modular homes are generally of better quality. If you are considering a manufactured home, make absolutely sure that you get a list of previous home buyers from that manufacturer. Contact these customers as to their satisfaction and ask how, if at all, the manufacturer handled problems. Manufactured homes are a big gamble unless you can find a manufacturer who takes pride in his product and stands behind it. There are a lot of shoddy products being passed off as HUD approved. The HUD approval means nothing. This is very apparent when one looks at the construction techniques used on these homes. It enough to make one wonder if HUD knows what is going on. One HUD requirement is that the workmanship should demonstrate journeyman quality. You will find that far from reality. In closing, be very careful, it could cost you more time, money and grief than could be imagined. If you are considering a modular home you may still want to do a previous buyer survey.

from experience, i’d run from a home of any type that was built to hud standards. that’s a very barest minimum, imho. regards, charlie cave creek, az

Response:

I didn’t make up the Champion price. The maximum price is straight from the Champion web site. If they don’t want to honor it, that would be some type of fraud, I’d think. So I’m back to wondering how local dealers expect about $20K more for similar homes. I can understand some markup, but $20K (if my estimate is even close to accurate) is a bit much. Think of it this way. If a car had a MSRP of $20,000, would you pay $27,000 for the base model with no dealer added accessories? Well, for some cars you might have to, depending on how popular they are. I don’t see modular homes being THAT popular, though. And while I understand that it’s up to me to determine what a fair price is and whether I want to pay it or not . . . if modular home dealers are making $20K a pop selling these things, I might have to consider a career change. Again, how much the modular houses are marked up is pure speculation, as I haven’t been able to find enough information to determine that. But when you see two houses of similar quality, size and layout, and one is more than $20K higher (or 33%), you can’t help but wonder why. -Dave — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why do you suspect that, and what would make them fair? A fair price is what a well informed buy agrees to. Call both and ask them. Ask Champion if you can buy it from them for the $X you think it should be (bet you can’t). You seem to assume there is some "place". You get the right price and not ripped off, by comparing several suppliers, becoming informed, and seeing what people are willing to sell you comparable homes for. Then YOU decide. You act like it is up to someone else to tell you what to pay. It is up to you. Welcome to ownership. -v.

Response:

…. I don’t even know if THOSE prices are fair, though I suspect that they aren’t.

Why do you suspect that, and what would make them fair? A fair price is what a well informed buy agrees to. … I can’t help but wonder at the $10-$20K (or more) discrepancy between the maximum price listed by Champion and the retail price posted by dealers…

Call both and ask them. Ask Champion if you can buy it from them for the $X you think it should be (bet you can’t). How do you keep from getting ripped off when you purchase a modular home? Where do you find the price you SHOULD expect to pay?

You seem to assume there is some "place". You get the right price and not ripped off, by comparing several suppliers, becoming informed, and seeing what people are willing to sell you comparable homes for. Then YOU decide. You act like it is up to someone else to tell you what to pay. It is up to you. Welcome to ownership. -v.

Response:

While it might be a good idea to ask the dealer "why does it cost more?", I’m not expecting a completely honest answer from someone who has a financial interest in the transaction. I’d be inclined to order a Champion model, as at least Champion lists their prices up front . . . but they don’t seem to have a dealer in New Hampshire who carries modular homes (but they do have dealers who sell Champion HUD Codes, and are not willing to sell modulars, I’ve asked) I’ve emailed Champion hoping they could point me to a dealer who can sell a modular house to build in NH, but I haven’t heard back from them yet. Dealers in this area seem to carry mainly Manorwood (Commodore), which would be my 4th choice, based on research. But I can’t find prices for them, or any others besides Champion. That’s why I asked here, hoping someone would know how to determine fair price on these things. While I agree that I should be looking at the bottom line of the whole transaction, to me it seems like markup on some models I’ve seen might be close to $20,000 or so, which (if I’m right) will have a significant impact on the move-in price of the house, even if that’s close to $200,000. (that is, I’d rather pay $180,000 or so, obviously) -Dave — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d start by asking the dealer that very question "Why does it cost more?" Show him that you are informed, that you’ve done your research, and that you are a logical person. Some things that come to mind: The dealer is paying some cost for those demos homes you walk through, he has to recoup that. The dealer has overhead to pay (employees, land rent, insurance, etc) The homes are probably marked up because everybody expects to negotiate down, or because people try to make last-minute changes that are costly, so the dealer is accounting for this up front. Maybe that’s just what the local market will bear, you can’t fault the guy for wanting to make as much money as possible. It might help to look at the total package cost for the house (delivery, setup, etc) and compare that to a similar site-built house. If the net package comes out to be a good deal, don’t get too hung up on the line items.

Response:

Sorry if this is a bit wordy . . . The wife and I have decided to build a modular home soon. What I need to know is, how do you determine a fair price for the house itself? The way I see it, these homes are built in a factory, so they SHOULD have a MSRP listed somewhere, shouldn’t they? A window sticker like cars use would be nice, but I guess that’s asking too much? I know that modular homes can be modified to your own specifications (and thus the cost would increase), but I’m talking about standard floorplans listed in the manufacturer’s catalog, where no modifications are needed. There should be a standard price, shouldn’t there? Here is my problem . . . I’ve already toured a few modular homes on local dealer lots, but nothing that absolutely knocked my socks off, as they all had a major problem with the floorplan, such as no way to attach a garage without paying many thousands of dollars for modifications, or no room for a den without many thousands of dollars of modifications. That is, the modular homes sitting on dealer lots would not fit my needs, but those are the only ones I’ve been able to get any price on, and I don’t even know if THOSE prices are fair, though I suspect that they aren’t. Why do I suspect that? Well, for a while we really had our heart set on one particular model made by a company called Champion. They (Champion) don’t say how much the house costs, but they DO give it a range of $50,000 to $60,000. That is, if you search for houses for $50,000, it doesn’t appear in the list, but if you do the search for $60,000, the specific model we like is listed in that range. On dealer lots though, similar floorplans (judged by square footage and features) by other manufacturers are from $69,999 to $79,999 or higher (the price that the dealer wants). These are still well within my budget for the house itself, but I can’t help but wonder at the $10-$20K (or more) discrepancy between the maximum price listed by Champion and the retail price posted by dealers for similar models by other manufacturers. How do you keep from getting ripped off when you purchase a modular home? Where do you find the price you SHOULD expect to pay? I’m just talking house cost. Land, land prep, delivery and setup charges are being considered separately. I’d rather not get ripped off to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars when I order the house though. I’m expecting I’ll probably end up ordering a standard floorplan from a catalog, as I HAVE been able to find a few that fit my needs *with no modifications*, but not on dealer’s lots. So how do I determine a fair price when I order the standard floorplan? -Dave — On hotmail dot com, I am user "junknothankyou".

Response:

Women are superficial

admin — Fri, 01 Mar 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Sounds like you went above and beyond. Congratulations for giving it a try. Now you can look at yourself in the mirror and know that you gave it every possible chance. And, money has never bought anyone any happiness……thanks for bringing that all back home again. Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul, I just can’t resist a reply. Obviously you have encountered some very superficial women. Let me tell you my story. When I met my hubby he was making about 50K, the same as me and driving a car that was maybe a little nicer than mine. He bought me a huge rock (that I tried to talk him out of), a gigantic house in the suburbs (that I thought was too expensive), and a brand new red sports car (again against my better judgement). He quickly discovered that material possessions do not buy happiness. We sold the house, I gave him back the car and offered to return the ring when we separated. I told him I would support him if he would quit his job and come live with me (he was thinking of starting a new career and despised his current job). When I made that offer he was making just over 100K and I had just started a new job after being on welfare for a while when we separated. I had a 350,000 house in the second richest county in the US and all I really want is for my husband to come live with me in the small modular home I’m renting in rural Missouri. Last Friday he finally admitted to an emotional affair, of which I was aware, but also admitted to unsuccessfully trying to make it physical. I forgave him and told him I wanted to work it out. Today he told me he just can’t be happy with me and he’s going to file for divorce on Monday. I think I can safely say that the demise of our relationship was not due to any "superficialness" on my part. Here’s the bottom line with women. As soon as she knows a) what you look like and b) what car you drive, you’re as attractive as you’re ever going to get to her. You cannot do anything that will make you more appealing in her eyes. Women are 100% superficial, but have a whole bunch of little loopholes and pretends to make them seem otherwise, virtually any time a woman mentions "his attitude" or "the spark just wasn’t there" or some other such ambiguous nonsense, he just didn’t measure up to her superficial requirements. Having a nice looking guy pay attention to her is what makes a woman FEEL good. Having a rich guy buy her things will make her feel good. Having an unattractive guy pay her attention will make her feel like the victim of sexual harassment. Once you understand this about women, the rest is easy. Paul

Response:

So that guy I had dinner with that one evening, who drove the BMV and had the 14K gold swizzle stick wasn’t in love with property and money? Sheesh…..oh yea, by 7:30 I had a headache from hell and I left money on the table for my dinner. Not all women are the same. Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s the bottom line with women. As soon as she knows a) what you look like and b) what car you drive, you’re as attractive as you’re ever going to get to her. You cannot do anything that will make you more appealing in her eyes. Women are 100% superficial, but have a whole bunch of little loopholes and pretends to make them seem otherwise, virtually any time a woman mentions "his attitude" or "the spark just wasn’t there" or some other such ambiguous nonsense, he just didn’t measure up to her superficial requirements. Having a nice looking guy pay attention to her is what makes a woman FEEL good. Having a rich guy buy her things will make her feel good. Having an unattractive guy pay her attention will make her feel like the victim of sexual harassment. Once you understand this about women, the rest is easy. Paul

Response:

Paul, I just can’t resist a reply. Obviously you have encountered some very superficial women. Let me tell you my story. When I met my hubby he was making about 50K, the same as me and driving a car that was maybe a little nicer than mine. He bought me a huge rock (that I tried to talk him out of), a gigantic house in the suburbs (that I thought was too expensive), and a brand new red sports car (again against my better judgement). He quickly discovered that material possessions do not buy happiness. We sold the house, I gave him back the car and offered to return the ring when we separated. I told him I would support him if he would quit his job and come live with me (he was thinking of starting a new career and despised his current job). When I made that offer he was making just over 100K and I had just started a new job after being on welfare for a while when we separated. I had a 350,000 house in the second richest county in the US and all I really want is for my husband to come live with me in the small modular home I’m renting in rural Missouri. Last Friday he finally admitted to an emotional affair, of which I was aware, but also admitted to unsuccessfully trying to make it physical. I forgave him and told him I wanted to work it out. Today he told me he just can’t be happy with me and he’s going to file for divorce on Monday. I think I can safely say that the demise of our relationship was not due to any "superficialness" on my part.

Response:

If you don’t like them, then why do you go? I’m assuming you live in a fairly large urban area, so there are surely also some nice "authentic" restaurants to go to, even some of them "upscale" for when you’re in the mood for a fine-dinning experience. I’d suggest you examine this urge to criticize and put down people whose tastes and experiences are simply different–not better, not worse–than yours. I, for example, don’t particularly care for most country/western music. But I feel no particularly compelling urge to go to C&W clubs and feel all smug and superior compared to all those poor tasteless clods who actually do like the stuff. To each his own.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What gets me are the silly/trendy/yuppie restaurants with young adults prancing around trying to appear "in-the-know". It’s like watching pre-teen girls so very proud of their overdone makeup and high-heel shoes they have not yet learned to walk in. What drives me nuts is when you go into one of these yuppie wannabe restaurants, get served trendyized food that is nothing like Chinese, Thai, Indonesian or whatever, with fork, knife, and spoon but no chop sticks, and then have a part time college student waiter serve it and tell you what it is, how to eat it, and how to pronounce the name of that food incorrectly. One of these days, I will be in one of these restaurants with an Indonesian friend or family member, and I’m going to have a blast. I’m going to pretend I’m having trouble with English and turn to my Indonesian friends to help with translation. I’m tall and white, so it will probably catch the waiter or waitress totally off guard.

That might be fun Dan

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Response:

What gets me are the silly/trendy/yuppie restaurants with young adults prancing around trying to appear "in-the-know". It’s like watching pre-teen girls so very proud of their overdone makeup and high-heel shoes they have not yet learned to walk in. What drives me nuts is when you go into one of these yuppie wannabe restaurants, get served trendyized food that is nothing like Chinese, Thai, Indonesian or whatever, with fork, knife, and spoon but no chop sticks, and then have a part time college student waiter serve it and tell you what it is, how to eat it, and how to pronounce the name of that food incorrectly. One of these days, I will be in one of these restaurants with an Indonesian friend or family member, and I’m going to have a blast. I’m going to pretend I’m having trouble with English and turn to my Indonesian friends to help with translation. I’m tall and white, so it will probably catch the waiter or waitress totally off guard. Dan

Response:

Ask a twentysomething guy to choose between girl who has that model image and a girl who is shall we say 20 lbs overweight and 98% of the time they go with the girl who looks like a model. Talk about superficial.

Please. If you present a guy of any age, _or_ a woman, of any age, with a choice where the only basis for decision is appearance, people are going to go with the better appearance. That said, 98% is too high. Tastes vary quite a lot more than that. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

I don’t know how you kept from giggling hysterically when he pulled it out.

Trying to think of a good line for this one, but we "are" talking about some sort of stick here…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s the bottom line with women. As soon as she knows a) what you look like and b) what car you drive, you’re as attractive as you’re ever going to get to her. You cannot do anything that will make you more appealing in her eyes. Women are 100% superficial, but have a whole bunch of little loopholes and pretends to make them seem otherwise, virtually any time a woman mentions "his attitude" or "the spark just wasn’t there" or some other such ambiguous nonsense, he just didn’t measure up to her superficial requirements. Having a nice looking guy pay attention to her is what makes a woman FEEL good. Having a rich guy buy her things will make her feel good. Having an unattractive guy pay her attention will make her feel like the victim of sexual harassment. Once you understand this about women, the rest is easy. Paul

What you say , paul , is true to a certain extent.Personally i was never that type. But i think the same can be said about guys, except guys go for looks over anything else. Ask a twentysomething guy to choose between girl who has that model image and a girl who is shall we say 20 lbs overweight and 98% of the time they go with the girl who looks like a model. Talk about superficial.

Response:

know how you kept from giggling hysterically when he pulled it out. Well, I am just a kid from the west side of Indianapolis…and not the rich part either. I had no clue what it was until he told me. Then, I had a hard time believing such a thing existed. My world never included those things….where I grew up you stirred the drink with your finger! ;-) Unless the person sitting next to you had a dirtier finger that would add flavor! Denise

Response:

Just wanted to change the subject line. Denise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t know how you kept from giggling hysterically when he pulled it out. Well, I am just a kid from the west side of Indianapolis…and not the rich part either. I had no clue what it was until he told me. Then, I had a hard time believing such a thing existed. My world never included those things….where I grew up you stirred the drink with your finger! ;-) Unless the person sitting next to you had a dirtier finger that would add flavor! Denise

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The 14K gold swizzle stick just cracks me up, Denise. I don’t know how you kept from giggling hysterically when he pulled it out. I go more for the beer-drinkin’ kind of guy who would have a "church-key" in his kitchen drawer and who wears Levi’s or jeans from Sears. Lauri in WA, beer taste on a beer budget! I like my email spamless

Response:

The 14K gold swizzle stick just cracks me up, Denise. I don’t know how you kept from giggling hysterically when he pulled it out.

Indeed. I go more for the beer-drinkin’ kind of guy who would have a "church-key" in his kitchen drawer and who wears Levi’s or jeans from Sears.

Do I get bonus points for one on the fridge _and_ one in the kitchen drawer? Oh well. People are different. I’ve actually encountered women who really would be interested in the 14K gold swizzle stick and the ‘fancy’ car. They’re the minority of my experience, but they’re out there. With luck they’ll wind up with Denise’s date, and be perfectly matched (also removing a pair from the dating pool that neither you nor I would be interested in). — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

Welcome to the killfile, generalizing bigot. Rob

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If I met a guy who held this attitude, I’d conclude he suffered from a serious case of low self-esteem. And I wouldn’t care how good looking he was or what he drove, cuz the low self-esteem would be an instant turn-off. jen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s the bottom line with women. As soon as she knows a) what you look like and b) what car you drive, you’re as attractive as you’re ever going to get to her. You cannot do anything that will make you more appealing in her eyes. Women are 100% superficial, but have a whole bunch of little loopholes and pretends to make them seem otherwise, virtually any time a woman mentions "his attitude" or "the spark just wasn’t there" or some other such ambiguous nonsense, he just didn’t measure up to her superficial requirements. Having a nice looking guy pay attention to her is what makes a woman FEEL good. Having a rich guy buy her things will make her feel good. Having an unattractive guy pay her attention will make her feel like the victim of sexual harassment. Once you understand this about women, the rest is easy. Paul

Response:

That’s not true Paul….I for one have never been that kind of woman. Daisy

Hi Daisy!!!!! I’m not a super-fish, either!

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*** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***

Here’s the bottom line with women. As soon as she knows a) what you look like and

I agree with this one, and it’s true with men too. Thing is, people have varying degrees of how deeply they "look". I don’t agree with the rest. —–= Posted via Newsfeed.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeed.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== 90,000 Groups! – 17 Servers! – Unlimited Download! =—–

Response:

Hey! I like jeeps!….and wouldn’t have a BMW if I had room for a freight train. Keep him. BTW….did he come with a boat and motor?

Response:

I don’t want to agree with him, but I have run into the very ones he is describing. They really make you feel like crap.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s not true Paul….I for one have never been that kind of woman. Daisy Here’s the bottom line with women. As soon as she knows a) what you look like and b) what car you drive, you’re as attractive as you’re ever going to get to her. You cannot do anything that will make you more appealing in her eyes. Women are 100% superficial, but have a whole bunch of little loopholes and pretends to make them seem otherwise, virtually any time a woman mentions "his attitude" or "the spark just wasn’t there" or some other such ambiguous nonsense, he just didn’t measure up to her superficial requirements. Having a nice looking guy pay attention to her is what makes a woman FEEL good. Having a rich guy buy her things will make her feel good. Having an unattractive guy pay her attention will make her feel like the victim of sexual harassment. Once you understand this about women, the rest is easy. Paul

Response:

Here’s the bottom line with women. As soon as she knows a) what you look like and b) what car you drive, you’re as attractive as you’re ever going to get to her. You cannot do anything that will make you more appealing in her eyes. Women are 100% superficial, but have a whole bunch of little loopholes and pretends to make them seem otherwise, virtually any time a woman mentions "his attitude" or "the spark just wasn’t there" or some other such ambiguous nonsense, he just didn’t measure up to her superficial requirements. Having a nice looking guy pay attention to her is what makes a woman FEEL good. Having a rich guy buy her things will make her feel good. Having an unattractive guy pay her attention will make her feel like the victim of sexual harassment. Once you understand this about women, the rest is easy. Paul

Response:

That’s not true Paul….I for one have never been that kind of woman. Daisy

Response:

wow, that’s some real insight there Paul. I’ll have to remember that next time I’m looking for a guy. He has to be good looking and drive a nice car ! Gosh, how did I ever over look those two things before ? Let’s see, the man I married *bleh* didn’t even have a car when I met him and is not a real looker. Dunno, as I see it the "nice" car would be a monthly payment (insurance or car note !) that I just wouldn’t wanna pay. The nice looks would be a pain in the ass because he’d because I can stand anyone being prettier than I am…LOL ! I can’t speak for ALL women but having a loving caring partner, one that is concerned about my well being makes me FEEL good (and a few other things that might be to X rated for the group) hehe Buying things for MYSELF and my children make me feel good…. By the way, my partner drives a Jeep ! *wonders how nice a car that is* where do you guys come up with this stuff ?? ~ Belinda ~

Response:

I’m reminded of a line a friend uses: Consider that everything the other person says is true. What is it true _of_? Since I’ve known a number of different women, and observed that their likes are different, I know that ‘the bottom line with women’ isn’t true of all women. Since I’ve seen a number of relationships where the initial point was anywhere from blah to dislike, that turned in to serious romance later, I know that some people can become more appealing to each other. So the conclusion isn’t true of the entire world (at least) either. So, if the ‘bottom line’ is true, it must be true of the poster’s experience (perhaps augmented by some like-minded observers). Sorry to hear that your experience with women peaks with their observing your appearance and car. For me, that’s the low point and things get better from there. I’m merely presentable, and have a functional (but non-penismobile) car. Your truth is not mine. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

5th wheel backing instructions in Vegas

admin — Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: OK. I give up. I can’t get the hang of it. I have a 28′ fifth wheel and a 2000 Qcab Dodge diesel. We recently bought a home with RV parking. I got the damn thing in the hole after 3 1/2 hours. (it is a bit tight) This obviously takes the fun out of going. My wife is also afraid to drive, so we have decided professional help is in order. (Not the type to help figure out why we bought in the first place.) Looking for experienced pro in Las Vegas area to take on a teaching job. It’s a few hours away, but there is an excellent RV driving school in Ontario, CA. I can’t get my hands on the name or info at the moment, but if you’d like it, e-mail me and I’ll look it up for you. Janet The Road Princess

Janet & Gary: The RV Driving School has relocated to Applegate CA. Phone # 503-878-0111 — email address. I do not check for mail there, so will not respond.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did not write the portion set off by the **s. Phread, intentionally altering another’s quote is a far greater sin than my (since apologized for) infraction. Next time leave off the carat marks when inserting your own drivel. If you have something *personal* against me, use the e-mail address bellow and spare these good folks from your bad manners. Janet, who takes no crap from idiots and resents when idiots throw crap at her friends. The Road Princess

Janet, good for you. Don’t know if you were familiar with this jackass from before, but with rare exception when he comes out from the stall and starts to bray you can almost always expect something this ignorant. — email address. I do not check for mail there, so will not respond.

Response:

writes: OK. I give up. I can’t get the hang of it. I have a 28′ fifth wheel and a 2000 Qcab Dodge diesel. We recently bought a home with RV parking. I got the damn thing in the hole after 3 1/2 hours. (it is a bit tight) This obviously takes the fun out of going. My wife is also afraid to drive, so we have decided professional help is in order. (Not the type to help figure out why we bought in the first place.) Looking for experienced pro in Las Vegas area to take on a teaching job.

It’s a few hours away, but there is an excellent RV driving school in Ontario, CA. I can’t get my hands on the name or info at the moment, but if you’d like it, e-mail me and I’ll look it up for you. Janet The Road Princess

Response:

Or…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t get my hands on the name or info at the moment, but if you’d like it, e-mail $5.00 through paypal.com and I’ll look it up for you. Janet The Road Princess

Response:

It is the RV Driving School founded by Dick Reed that you are looking for. Their website is http://www.rvschool.com/ My wife and I took the weekend course and felt that the investment was well worth it , and that we got our money’s worth. Alan Alan & Melanie Bryant The Dynamic Duo’s Website http://dynamicduo.ca

Response:

Or…… I can’t get my hands on the name or info at the moment, but if you’d like it, e-mail **$5.00 through paypal.com** and I’ll look it up for you. Janet The Road Princess

I did not write the portion set off by the **s. Phread, intentionally altering another’s quote is a far greater sin than my (since apologized for) infraction. Next time leave off the carat marks when inserting your own drivel. If you have something *personal* against me, use the e-mail address bellow and spare these good folks from your bad manners. Janet, who takes no crap from idiots and resents when idiots throw crap at her friends. The Road Princess

Response:

Janet, You sure did get the *idiots* part right! I can’t believe the behavior of a few of these folks here …. and also wonder how they could not know how stupid they make themselves look to most people. Good for you for standing up for yourself! Linda Palmer

Response:

l l house car RV l l l l l l l l l l l l l Maybe this will help explain my problem. This is in a modular home community and 20′ of carport removed in front + uphill. My 40 something wife and I will still take lessons, even though it is hard to admit weaknesses.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK. I give up. I can’t get the hang of it. I have a 28′ fifth wheel and a 2000 Qcab Dodge diesel. We recently bought a home with RV parking. I got the damn thing in the hole after 3 1/2 hours. (it is a bit tight) This obviously takes the fun out of going. My wife is also afraid to drive, so we have decided professional help is in order. (Not the type to help figure out why we bought in the first place.) Looking for experienced pro in Las Vegas area to take on a teaching job. Gary

Response:

OK, so I’m trying to understand this one now. You’ve been pulling and backing the rig for 2 years and it took you 3.5 hours to back it in your RV spot. Is the drive really crooked? Hard to get to with tight turns? Really narrow? Why 3.5 hours to park? Second, if your wife has never pulled the rig it is total irresponsibility on her part. There is no excuse for this unless she is disabled in some way so that she cannot drive at all. If you have been pulling for 2 years she has had ample opportunity to get behind the wheel and learn the basics. All of the above is IMO.

Bob, you gotta understand: when someone WANTS to feel insulted, nothing you can say will help them. It appears they BOTH need to go to school – her for driving lessons he’s too timid to give in a parking lot, and him for improving his manners. Will KD3XR

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps a bit harsh, but Bob has a point about your wife learning to tow. She should, in fact, also know how to hitch/unhitch. What would happen if you were injured during a trip and became unable to drive or handle the trailer? A simple broken leg could be a disaster. — Dudley – http://members.aol.com/stephndudb/rv.html "Camping" in 5000 pounds of stick and tin. OK, so I’m trying to understand this one now. You’ve been pulling and backing the rig for 2 years and it took you 3.5 hours to back it in your RV spot. Is the drive really crooked? Hard to get to with tight turns? Really narrow? Why 3.5 hours to park? Second, if your wife has never pulled the rig it is total irresponsibility on her part. There is no excuse for this unless she is disabled in some way so that she cannot drive at all. If you have been pulling for 2 years she has had ample opportunity to get behind the wheel and learn the basics.

It maybe related to age or generation, but I think women driving a fifth wheel or even a class A is the exception to the rule. "Honey Bunny, before you unhitch don’t forget to dump the tanks." I’m with others, I’d be moving dirt to make better access. But for some that isn’t an option. From earlier post, there isn’t evidence that The Road Princess has a monetary interest. As in the thread "Did I spam" there are degrees of financial interest. I have recommended DISH network here several times. It is in my interest to see DISH do well, but convincing a couple people to subscribe wont make a difference. .

Response:

I actually have been pulling the trailer and backing it for a couple of years, but my wife has never pulled it.

Response:

Perhaps a bit harsh, but Bob has a point about your wife learning to tow. She should, in fact, also know how to hitch/unhitch. What would happen if you were injured during a trip and became unable to drive or handle the trailer? A simple broken leg could be a disaster. — Dudley – http://members.aol.com/stephndudb/rv.html "Camping" in 5000 pounds of stick and tin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, so I’m trying to understand this one now. You’ve been pulling and backing the rig for 2 years and it took you 3.5 hours to back it in your RV spot. Is the drive really crooked? Hard to get to with tight turns? Really narrow? Why 3.5 hours to park? Second, if your wife has never pulled the rig it is total irresponsibility on her part. There is no excuse for this unless she is disabled in some way so that she cannot drive at all. If you have been pulling for 2 years she has had ample opportunity to get behind the wheel and learn the basics.

Response:

What an idiot1111 Or…… I can’t get my hands on the name or info at the moment, but if you’d like it, e-mail $5.00 through paypal.com and I’ll look it up for you. Janet The Road Princess

–

Response:

Hi, Gary: We had a similar problem. We had to back our new TT around two 90 degree turns bordered by a stone wall and two embankments. The first time we tried to get in it took a couple of hours but we got better at it with time. It never got exactly easy, but it got better. The good news is, getting into the average campsite was a snap compared to what we had at home. You know the trick about putting your hand on the bottom of the steering wheel and turning it the way you want the trailer to go, right? (We finally had a friend with a backhoe come in and fix our driveway so we could park the TT easier.)

Boy does that sound familier 30 yards of fill, 10 yards of topsoil, and 12 inchs of stan-pipe extension and I only have to back round one 90 degree corner now. MUCH easier. — RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/rv If Windows is the answer I would really like to know what the question is

Response:

<< Which one of your ‘friends’ did I throw crap on? Tim, I was most concerned about anything rubbing off on Care. Those kind of organizations are having a rough time surviving. So having some fun with the Princess should not throw mud on an institution such as Care. Tom

Response:

I actually have been pulling the trailer and backing it for a couple of years, but my wife has never pulled it. I also have been monitoring this newsgroup for over two years, and knew I might get some very off topic answers, and my being incompetent from Mr. Sill based on a single post does not surprise me, although he may be happy to hear my truck has the towing capacity for my trailer, so some of his more colorful descriptions MAY not apply. We will contact the school. Thanks to those with the helpful advise. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The RV Driving School has relocated to Applegate CA. Phone # 503-878-0111 Maybe I am being too critical, but the party wanted some help BACKING. Frankly, I can’t imagine a normally intelligent driver being unable to learn backing by just PRACTICING in a parking lot. If a few hours doing that doesn’t get the job done, there’s a very good chance the driver in question is simply not competent to drive. Period. Will KD3XR

Response:

The RV Driving School has relocated to Applegate CA. Phone # 503-878-0111 Maybe I am being too critical, but the party wanted some help BACKING. Frankly, I can’t imagine a normally intelligent driver being unable to learn backing by just PRACTICING in a parking lot. If a few hours doing that doesn’t get the job done, there’s a very good chance the driver in question is simply not competent to drive. Period. Will KD3XR

Will, I agree, but decided to provide the information on the driving school. It was interesting to me that Janet’s post re the school came up at the same time that my Highways Mag came and there was a short piece re this school. — email address. I do not check for mail there, so will not respond.

Response:

Or…… I can’t get my hands on the name or info at the moment, but if you’d like it, e-mail $5.00 through paypal.com and I’ll look it up for you.

Phread, what an immature sense of humor! Grow up. — Carl A. http://pages.prodigy.net/chainnj/Journal.htm

Response:

The RV Driving School has relocated to Applegate CA. Phone # 503-878-0111

Maybe I am being too critical, but the party wanted some help BACKING. Frankly, I can’t imagine a normally intelligent driver being unable to learn backing by just PRACTICING in a parking lot. If a few hours doing that doesn’t get the job done, there’s a very good chance the driver in question is simply not competent to drive. Period. Will KD3XR

Response:

Janet, I can’t believe the behavior of a few of these folks here …. and also wonder how they could not know how stupid they make themselves look to most people.

Do you honestly think I care one wit what "Linda Palmer" else reading my drivel thinks of me? Don’t like it? Don’t read it. Very simple.

Response:

Truer words have never been typed…..

Response:

Or…… I can’t get my hands on the name or info at the moment, but if you’d like it, e-mail **$5.00 through paypal.com** and I’ll look it up for you. Janet The Road Princess I did not write the portion set off by the **s. Phread, intentionally altering another’s quote is a far greater sin than my (since apologized for)

infraction. I thought it was funny. You come back here hawking your little booklet and I made fun of that. You getting your panties in a bunch over it is even funnier. Next time leave off the carat marks when inserting your own drivel.

How I post is entirely up to me. As it has been pointed out in the past, the NetNanny position is filled. If you have something *personal* against me, use the e-mail address bellow and spare these good folks from your bad manners.

These good folks no better than to take me seriously. Hell I yanked LZ and Hugh’s chain for a week over a damn bicycle ride. Also since I live in America, I will continue to exercise my freedom of speech thank you very much. Until of course the shrub (the SillyOne’s president) takes that right away from me. Janet, who takes no crap from idiots and resents when idiots throw crap at her friends.

Which one of your ‘friends’ did I throw crap on? The Road Princess

– TravlinTim (the Road KING!) Hansen

Response:

OK. I give up. I can’t get the hang of it. I have a 28′ fifth wheel and a 2000 Qcab Dodge diesel. We recently bought a home with RV parking. I got the damn thing in the hole after 3 1/2 hours. (it is a bit tight) This obviously takes the fun out of going. My wife is also afraid to drive, so we have decided professional help is in order. (Not the type to help figure out why we bought in the first place.) Looking for experienced pro in Las Vegas area to take on a teaching job. Gary

Response:

Look for a trucking school or a RV dealer for a pointer to a hands-on instructor. BTW, it does eventually get easier…. OK. I give up. I can’t get the hang of it. I have a 28′ fifth wheel and a 2000 Qcab Dodge diesel. We recently bought a home with RV parking. I got the damn thing in the hole after 3 1/2 hours. (it is a bit tight) This obviously takes the fun out of going. My wife is also afraid to drive, so we have decided professional help is in order. (Not the type to help figure out why we bought in the first place.) Looking for experienced pro in Las Vegas area to take on a teaching job. Gary

–

Response:

Dachle poisoning the environment

admin — Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

5. Rammed earth: Mostly of use in the Southwest. Advantage: When faced with stucco, can be a durable and strong building material. Dirt is cheaper than most other building materials. Tends to be cooler during the day than other housing types in the Southwest, due to the large thermal mass that evens out the temperature swings between hot desert day and cold desert night. Disadvantages: While immune to insect damage itself, it has obvious potential to funnel insects up into the rest of the house, meaning that insect-resistant materials must be used everywhere. Not going to be good news in damp climates — rammed mud just don’t cut it from a structural point of view. Now you are lighting the aroma-therapy candles. This one of Bin Laden’s favorite structures.

Not quite. Out here in the West, adobe is very popular amongst buyers of very expensive ($500,000+) custom homes. It has that "Western" look. Let’s face it, people don’t move into the middle of the desert to live in a custom house that looks like it could have been built in Ohio. The problem is that adobe bricks are very heavy and labor-intensive to lay (same basic problem as concrete block, but concrete block is lighter and thus goes up a little quicker than adobe). They are also expensive, because they are basically still hand-made — if you go out to the "factory", what you’ll see is row upon row of forms laying out in the sun, and they toss the appropriate amounts of soil (a special sifted soil w/appropriate sand/clay mix) and binder (usually soil cement) into the cement mixer, add water, then pour the resulting mud onto these forms. Just like laying concrete. Then after the bricks cure for several days in the sun, they’re pulled out by hand and shipped by truck to where they need to be. At that point they’re laid just like regular bricks, except in much thicker walls (a minimum of 12" is required by New Mexico code, and Arizona code basically requires following someone else’s code for adobe — and New Mexico is basically "it"). The problem is the labor to pull them out of the forms, and the shipping. These things are HEAVY (over 20 pounds per 6" by 12" by 2" brick), and fragile — you can’t just sling them onto the truck, they must be placed. So basically what "rammed earth" is, out here, is you take the ingredients used for adobe, and to reduce the labor you pour the result into forms on site in the shape of the wall you’re trying to build, rather than into bricks that must then be pulled out of forms and placed. Much less labor. (Note that we DO use binder here, it’s not bin Laden style plain old mud walls). The "rammed" part of the "rammed earth" refers to the "thumper" used to tamp down the layers (I believe you use these when you’re pouring concrete foundations too, to tamp down the mix, but the adobe mix is stiffer than concrete mix and needs more tamping). Unfortunately, you end up rather restricted by the shape of the forms. With adobe you can lay those arched windows and such that are staples of Western architecture. "rammed earth" is rather, uhm, square, by comparison. Anyhow, you finish it on the outside with stucco (just as with adobe), and finish the inside any way that you wish, and voila. As for your comments about concrete block construction: Almost every 40 year old house I’ve ever seen built with concrete block construction has gaps in the walls that you can put your fist into (where they haven’t outright collapsed). That is where my comments came from about concrete block walls needing better foundations than stud walls. My grandmother’s old house was built in 1964 (almost 40 years ago) on concrete blocks (no proper foundations) by novice carpenters (basically, the neighbors and a few relatives), and while it settled and shifted over the years, the walls and roof are still sound. This is perfect proof that a stud-frame house can be built with cheap labor and still be structurally sound years later, if the people doing the building actually care about what they’re doing. Concrete block houses need much more care in their construction to be structurally sound 40 years later. You can’t hire Mexicans off the street corner to sling up concrete block walls. You need craftsmen, people who can lay a line. It’s a lot easier nailing OSB to studs than laying a line (I’ve done both in the past, once you get the studs square everything else just falls into place, but I never got the hang of laying a line, my garden planters looked, uhm, sick). Around here, those guys who can do concrete block are all union, and they cost a bundle, primarily because they mostly do commercial construction and charge commercial construction prices. Regarding insulation, concrete block has a very low "R" rating. Sure, if you put insulating board on the inside and outside you can get that up a bit. Of course, you’re talking about more expense there than a stud wall, for the same insulating value and little more strength (well, a lot more COMPRESSIVE strength, but no more lateral strength). But it IS impervious to insects looking for munchies. As is the foam block & concrete house, but that has more insulating value and less labor cost (since you can change the line after it’s been laid but before pouring the concrete). The problem is lack of builders familiar with the foam & concrete systems — there are (expensive) builders who can build concrete block here in Arizona, and at least one high end builder who can do adobe and/or rammed earth, but I haven’t seen anybody who does foam & concrete. And finally: Yes, we do license builders here in Arizona. However, the licensing board has little ability to do background checks on those who apply for licenses, and is chronically short on inspectors. What happens is that fly-by-night builders incorporate under a dozen or more names, and get contractor’s licenses for all of those dummy corporations (any cursory background check will find no complaints for any of the principals of those corporations, because none of them have done anything bad yet). Then they engage in "build’n’scoot" tactics, slinging up a subdivision with the cheapest materials possible. Then when the rush of faulty construction claims start coming in it’ll take the licensing board some time to get inspectors out to verify the faulty construction. When the licensing board finally yanks their license and fines them, they declare bankruptcy and start operating under yet another one of the names that they registered. There’s one outfit recently profiled in the newspaper that has had their license pulled under four different names in the past ten years, and that has managed to avoid paying claims every time by declaring bankruptcy after delaying the case in court for a few years and then going into business under another name. Most local cities have instituted an Eastern-style building code, where an inspector must sign off at each stage that the new building is up to code. But in the vast majority of Arizona there is no building inspector. All the fly-by-night has to do is set up camp one inch on the other side of the city line and he can build anything he feels like building, knowing that the day of reckoning is years off (if he plays his cards right in court) and will be painless (if he incorporated and licensed enough dummy corporations beforehand). So now you know why we Arizonans are down on builders at the moment . So if I blast you from time to time, don’t take it personal — I’m mostly blasting the scumbag "build’n’scoot" scam artist down the road who filled the area with instant ghettos every bit as bad as the stereotypical "trailer park" of yore. — Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg You do not save freedom by destroying freedom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … I’m still trying to decide on building materials and methods. I really have not been satisfied by anything I’ve seen so far. [...] BTW, here’s where we’re at so far: 1. Foam block/rebar/concrete: [...] 2. Concrete block: [...] 3. Stud/plywood: [...] 4. Post-and-infill: [...] 4a. Commercial style post-and-infill: [...] 5. Rammed earth: Mostly of use in the Southwest. [...] 6. Straw bale: Mostly of use in the Southwest. [...] Anyhow, that’s the stage I’m at while devising my "dream home". Alas, most of those building methods are not allowed in residential neighborhoods here in Phoenix. Dude, one word: adobe.

You’re right, I left that one out. Although it’s sort of covered under #5, "rammed earth". (Same construction material after all :-p ). — Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg You do not save freedom by destroying freedom

Response:

So how do you like your trailer, Eric? [smirk] Hey guys, here’s a fun thing to do at a convention of home builders: Shout "Manufactured housing!" at the top of your lungs, and watch the chaos break out as home builders start wringing their hands and tearing their hair out and squawking "trailer house! trailer house!" as they mill about looking for the heretic who uttered the Evil Term in their presence.

Eric, you could not be more incorrect. Manufactured homes, formerly called "trailers" are not a threat to the vast majority of builders. They do provide affordable houses that depreciates rapidly, but I guess that is better than living in an apartment. If you want to see builders "wringing their hands," just bring up some piece of proposed government regulation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where government does have a more active role in zoning they are simply trying to maintain land values and therefore tax values. Would you want to live in a town of trailers and double-wide manufactured cracker boxes? Maybe you would. Hmm, when was the last time you was in one of these things? Admittedly I would not want to live in one if I had the money to build my "dream home", but compared to the sagging crumbling 20-year-old stick homes down the street (the ones where the slabs are collapsing because they were not properly reinforced and because they were mixed with too much water because the lazy-ass subcontracters didn’t feel like spreading stiff concrete, and where the walls are rotting out because the windows were not properly flashed, etc. etc. etc.), which is the only other houses they could have afforded, my relatives’ double-wides are the lap of luxury and better built besides.

Actually I toured a factory about two years ago. I was not impressed. The same guys who were doing the plumbing were also running the wiring. Overall the skill level of these fellows was at best semi-skilled. The test of a manufactured home is a high-wind storm, such as a hurricane or tornado. Have you ever seen what a hurricane can do to a manufactured home? The reason is that most of them are not required to meet the same wind-load requirements as a site-built home. A few facts: Slabs do not collapse because the concrete had too much water in the mix. Such slabs are more prone to cracking and weathers, but this is only rarely a structural consideration. On most manufactured home they don’t bother to use house wrap under the aluminum siding and they don’t flash the windows or doors as you might expect in conventional construction. I guess that your relatives do love their double-wide’s. Good for them. About twelve years ago my mother-in-law retired and sold her site-built home so that she could buy something smaller. She was really pissed at me at the time and did not build the home that I had designed for her. Instead she bought a big double-wide in a park that catered to retirees. She paid $65K for the mobile home. Last year she sold it for $15K. The that I was going to build for her and did sell to another couple sold for $114K more that they paid for it when they sold it last year. My guess is that even you can do the math and figure out which home was the best investment. While the old girl owned her double-wide palace, she had nothing but problems with it. The plumbing leaked, the roof leaked, she hated the tiny toilets, and electrical system had a lot of problems too. Not to mention the fact that it just looked cheap. I’ve toured one of the factories building the things. The materials used are virtually identical to those used in the cheaper stick houses, with the exception that they use faced drywall rather than spackled drywall to avoid cracking during the inevitable flexing that happens during the moving process. The roofing system is slightly different too, since it is basically a half-truss rather than a full truss, and of course the flooring system is catilevered steel beams rather than multiple parallel wooden beams, but none of those are particularly significant.

"Virtually identical" – hardly. The are significant in as much as what you described is a trailer. They are cheaply built and they possess the architectural value of a box of crackers. What builders hate about them is that they destroy property values and they ruin the tax base. In many states trailers are taxed as automobiles. Trailer folks get away with filling the local schools with their kids and paying very low taxes. And when government does apply these restriction, they are the result of input from the local community. That, Eric, is called a zoning hearing. You probably went to one to get a variance for your new double-wide. "input from local community" smirk. When did you last see ordinary citizens have input on some issue of substance? Yeah, occasionally ordinary citizens can stop the occasional liquor store or titty bar. Big deal, those guys don’t have the money to buy (or even rent) zoning commissioners. Here in Phoenix the zoning commissioners are all developers or in the employ of developers, and they do what the developers tell them to do (with the exception of the token university professor on the zoning board, who they shout down every time he tries to say something).

I have seen it happen so many times that I have lost count of the events. Any change of zoning or application for any development must undergo public review. I have been to these hearing and it is one of the only places where the average citizen can speak directly to his government officials. Remember, these are elected officials, they do respond to public input and public campaign contributions. Have you ever been to a zoning hearing where someone wants to build a trailer park? I have seen the most reserved, politically correct folks screaming that they don’t want to live near a bunch of "trailer trash." I remember one black gentleman telling the commission that he didn’t want to have to pay the taxes to build schools for a trailer park full of "white trash." And no one wants to see his or her property values collapse. Zoning laws are one of those things that arose out of the theory of "urban planning", which is the socialistic theory that government, rather than property owners, are the best judge of the proper use of a piece of property. This concept was validated by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1926 and since then has been responsible for the destruction of innumerable city neighborhoods by preventing the free market from fulfilling the needs of the neighborhood. When people cannot obtain the goods and services they want and need within a reasonable proximity of their neighborhood because "urban planning" has prevented the free market from satisfying those needs, these people then move elsewhere. Then people who cannot afford to live anywhere else move in, and the neighborhood swiftly declines.

I have little experience with inner city zoning issues. I wrote off the inner city many years ago. Government does have the right, under law, to control the use of property, though recent Supreme Court decisions have greatly weakened these powers – Thank God! Sill, local government is very receptive to public opinion, especially if you can organize a large group of folks who are likely to vote in the next election. These are elected officials and the want to be elected again. About a month ago I was talking to the mayor of Charlotte, Pat McCrory at a charity event. Pat, who had once been a strong supporter of the new arena had changed his position after the vote on the arena went against his position in a landslide vote. He had the intelligence to realize that he was up for re-election and that he did not want to alienate a large percentage of the voters in this issues. You will find that most residents are not happy to see manufactured home developments spring up in their back yard. Yes Eric, government, Correction: "Manufactured home ghettos". One of the things we discovered as part of the "public housing" movement of the 1960’s was that if you cluster low-income housing all in one place, what you get is a mess — an instant ghetto. Nobody wants a low-income housing development built in their back yard. By forcing manufactured housing into these ghettos, you insure that they’ll be attractive only to low income people. Which, of course, is the point — to avoid competition.

Eric, people will not tolerate manufactured homes in site-built communities. As I stated before, they de story property values and they tend to bring in low-income, low-education, high-crime neighbors. Low-income housing is like public housing – the folks who live there often are not good citizens and they do not support the community. The only people who buy manufactured housing are those who cannot afford to buy anything else. No one with enough money to buy a real home would be caught dead in a mobile home. The folks who can afford to buy a Lexus are not going to be looking for a Yugo. Manufactured housing is not forced into "ghettos" any more than customers who build $500K+ homes are forced into ghettos with large yards, gold clubs, and lake access. You could develop a mobile home community and charge $10,000,000 per home. But that would not attract the wealthy to buy a mobile home. Actually, Eric, we are just finishing a test home that sold for the same price per ft2 as the local modular home builder sells them for. Did you make as much profit?

It was a small home so the margin was pretty low. We only made about $35K on it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Generally though, my market is in very large custom homes. I’m still waiting to see one of my 7,600 ft2 three story brick homes with a full basement being moved down I-85. I saw an 16,000 square foot school move down Camelback Drive here in Phoenix, does that count? (It was moved in sections of course, which were

Response:

O What is utterly hilarious is that he goes into all these screeds about how government should not be restricting use of private property, when, as a builder of stick-built homes, he is one of the primary beneficiaries of such restrictions. After all, if cities did not have zoning codes outlawing manufactured housing on residential lots, then Peter would go out of business because he cannot build a stick-built house for the price of manufactured housing — he doesn’t have the volume, he has significant setup and breakdown costs, he can’t build in the rain (unlike an enclosed factory, where rain outside does not matter), his fixed overhead is idle during the "off" season, etc. So how do you like your trailer, Eric?

[smirk] Hey guys, here’s a fun thing to do at a convention of home builders: Shout "Manufactured housing!" at the top of your lungs, and watch the chaos break out as home builders start wringing their hands and tearing their hair out and squawking "trailer house! trailer house!" as they mill about looking for the heretic who uttered the Evil Term in their presence. Where government does have a more active role in zoning they are simply trying to maintain land values and therefore tax values. Would you want to live in a town of trailers and double-wide manufactured cracker boxes? Maybe you would.

Hmm, when was the last time you was in one of these things? Admittedly I would not want to live in one if I had the money to build my "dream home", but compared to the sagging crumbling 20-year-old stick homes down the street (the ones where the slabs are collapsing because they were not properly reinforced and because they were mixed with too much water because the lazy-ass subcontracters didn’t feel like spreading stiff concrete, and where the walls are rotting out because the windows were not properly flashed, etc. etc. etc.), which is the only other houses they could have afforded, my relatives’ double-wides are the lap of luxury and better built besides. I’ve toured one of the factories building the things. The materials used are virtually identical to those used in the cheaper stick houses, with the exception that they use faced drywall rather than spackled drywall to avoid cracking during the inevitable flexing that happens during the moving process. The roofing system is slightly different too, since it is basically a half-truss rather than a full truss, and of course the flooring system is catilevered steel beams rather than multiple parallel wooden beams, but none of those are particularly significant. And when government does apply these restriction, they are the result of input from the local community. That, Eric, is called a zoning hearing. You probably went to one to get a variance for your new double-wide.

"input from local community" smirk. When did you last see ordinary citizens have input on some issue of substance? Yeah, occasionally ordinary citizens can stop the occasional liquor store or titty bar. Big deal, those guys don’t have the money to buy (or even rent) zoning commissioners. Here in Phoenix the zoning commissioners are all developers or in the employ of developers, and they do what the developers tell them to do (with the exception of the token university professor on the zoning board, who they shout down every time he tries to say something). Zoning laws are one of those things that arose out of the theory of "urban planning", which is the socialistic theory that government, rather than property owners, are the best judge of the proper use of a piece of property. This concept was validated by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1926 and since then has been responsible for the destruction of innumerable city neighborhoods by preventing the free market from fulfilling the needs of the neighborhood. When people cannot obtain the goods and services they want and need within a reasonable proximity of their neighborhood because "urban planning" has prevented the free market from satisfying those needs, these people then move elsewhere. Then people who cannot afford to live anywhere else move in, and the neighborhood swiftly declines. You will find that most residents are not happy to see manufactured home developments spring up in their back yard. Yes Eric, government,

Correction: "Manufactured home ghettos". One of the things we discovered as part of the "public housing" movement of the 1960’s was that if you cluster low-income housing all in one place, what you get is a mess — an instant ghetto. Nobody wants a low-income housing development built in their back yard. By forcing manufactured housing into these ghettos, you insure that they’ll be attractive only to low income people. Which, of course, is the point — to avoid competition. Actually, Eric, we are just finishing a test home that sold for the same price per ft2 as the local modular home builder sells them for.

Did you make as much profit? Generally though, my market is in very large custom homes. I’m still waiting to see one of my 7,600 ft2 three story brick homes with a full basement being moved down I-85.

I saw an 16,000 square foot school move down Camelback Drive here in Phoenix, does that count? (It was moved in sections of course, which were then lifted by crane onto pre-prepared slabs at the final resting place… from breaking ground to school opening was a grand total of 6 weeks). In any event, Peter, you know that wasn’t my point at all. I was talking about the low end of the housing market, where developers buy up a 1000 acre cow pasture and, a few weeks later, are breaking ground to build a ticky-tacky mass produced housing development with slabs that are guaranteed to crack within 5 years (too much water because it takes too much time to move properly-mixed concrete, no pre-stressing of the reinforcement, no rebar), inadequate or missing flashing ("Hmm, if we just glop some roofing tar around the edge of the chimney that’ll last the 5 years of our warranty and we’ll have ‘gone out of business’ and re-incorporated under another name by that time so they won’t be able to sue us either"), etc. etc. etc. Then when the walls are rotting down 5 years from now (and OSB rots *SWIFTLY* when it gets wet — Peter, why are even the expensive "custom built" homes using OSB instead of plywood nowdays?), the people who bought their "dream homes" will sigh, pick up stakes, and move a few miles further out into the next cow pasture where they hope the next home will be better. Somehow it never is. Somehow Peter loves criticizing government interventions that impede his ability to pave the countryside, but utters not a peep about government interventions that place money in his pocket. Interesting. Let’s see, word, starts with ‘h’, 3 syllables… Government does not make me any money. It is the free market that fuels my business.

Well, I’ll find out. I’m still trying to decide on building materials and methods. I really have not been satisfied by anything I’ve seen so far. If zoning codes allow me to build the home I want to build on my property, well, great. If, instead, zoning codes only allow me to build the home YOU want to build on my property… well. BTW, here’s where we’re at so far: 1. Foam block/rebar/concrete: Advantage: Goes up quick. Very good insulation. very strong. immune to insect damage. Disadvantage: while immune to insect damage, also provides corridors for insects to enter into other parts of home. Home builders don’t know how to do it. 1a. Foam panel/rebar/concrete, similar systems: See above. 2. Concrete block: Advantage: well-known building system. Immune to insect damage. Disadvantage: Foundation preparation is crucial (it is NOT tolerant of the slightest defect or settling in the foundation). Little insulating value. Hard to finish. Labor-intensive, requires actual craftsmen rather than itenerate day laborers. Cannot use in earthquake-prone areas. 3. Stud/plywood: Advantage: If using plywood, very strong while lightweight. Easy to find cheap labor that can build it. Thus is least expensive construction method (except perhaps straw bale, see below for that). Disadvantage: if using 2×4 studs, not much insulation can be stuffed in there. Prone to rotting when used with finishing materials that do not allow adequate ventilation (e.g., fake stucco). Very succeptible to insect damage. 2×6 offers moderate amount of space for additional insulation, at expense of increase in cost that wipes out most of its cost advantage. More complex stud/plywood systems utilizing double-wall systems to increase amount of insulation space probably not worth persuing. 4. Post-and-infill: Typically used with a pole-type foundation system consisting of pressure-treated poles driven into the ground. The flooring and roofing systems are then slung from the poles, then curtain walls built around the perimeter and interior. Advantage: works well on steep slopes, where it can be used to build a multi-level home without extensive bulldozer work. Disadvantage: The pressure treated poles don’t last forever (supposedly they last for 50 years, but nobody really knows), meaning that eventually they will need to be replaced (a very expensive and iffy prospect). The floor tends to be a bit bouncy unless you’re very careful with the floor system. The floor ends up quite a ways from the ground, since you have large cross-members connecting the poles and the flooring system lives atop those cross members, plus you want to keep the cross members well above the ground to keep the termites out. 4a. Commercial style post-and-infill: Uses steel beams bolted to a foundation. Roof and floors are slung from beams similar to above, with curtain walls built around the edges and in the interior.

Response:

I will follow your advice and killfile you. None the less, why don’t you go play this game with people who *want* to play, not those who actually might want to follow discussions that pertain to rec.backcountry? You have gone away, ain’t killfiling wonderful? Soon you will only be talking to yourself, but that’s probably OK with you, I would surmise. Mark

It is so nice that you are gone.

Response:

The government takes over 50% of what I earn. That is hardly feeding off any "tit." The buyer of the home is the one that receives a tax break. For those of you who are used to living off the sweat and talent of others, there is a big difference between getting a welfare check in the mail and getting to keep more of the money that YOU earn through a tax break. Mark, you rank right up there with Eric for not knowing how this country works. If the government tariffs on the importation of Canadian and other lumber were dropped the cost of lumber in America would drop by at lest 20%. [Of course we pass the extra cost on to everyone who buys one of my homes, as do all builders]. As a consumer, do you have any idea how much government regulation, taxes, and general government interference cost you when you buy a new home? It is you, the uninformed consumer that pays the price, not the builder. We just pass on the cost to you. When government mandates 1.6 gallon flush toilets without letting the industry have time to develop the technology you are the jerk who gets a home with toilets that don’t flush. [Buy Toto, they flush great]. When government demands that fire-treated plywood be used in multi-family projects, you are the sucker that has a mortgage on a condo that is falling apart before you very eyes. You just don’t get it. And that is why you are a liberal. Beside, he ought to go play this silly straw man game with those who *really" wnat to play, not in a backcountry group. He may see himself as the town crier when in fact he’s more of the court jester.

Engage your kill filter, Mark.

Response:

Mark, if you had the brains that God gave a goldfish, you would put me in your kill filter and be done with me. By the way, comrade, did you send the same message to the liberals in this forum?

Response:

Puff Daschle Now, THAT lends credence to your arguments… Just can’t let go of the lessons learned at Mr. Limbaugh’s knee, can you? Herr Peter clones Limbaughs’s ideas, values, even jokes. He worships at the altar of Rush Limbaugh and Ollie North.

Chaka, you should not mention Limbaugh’s name while kissing Clintoon’s rear end. You know how that pisses-off Monica.

Response:

So how do you like your trailer, Eric? Actually, the vast majority of restrictions against "manufactured homes" were put in place by developers rather than local governments. Where government does have a more active role in zoning they are simply trying to maintain land values and therefore tax values. Would you want to live in a town of trailers and double-wide manufactured cracker boxes? Maybe you would. And when government does apply these restriction, they are the result of input from the local community. That, Eric, is called a zoning hearing. You probably went to one to get a variance for your new double-wide. You will find that most residents are not happy to see manufactured home developments spring up in their back yard. Yes Eric, government, especially local government, does receive input from the electorate. The market does not perceive manufactured homes to have the same value as site built homes. In most states they do not have to meet the same building codes as site built homes either. Actually, Eric, we are just finishing a test home that sold for the same price per ft2 as the local modular home builder sells them for. Actually, when you adjust the price to account for some of the truly shoddy components, this home would have sold for less than a modular home. Generally though, my market is in very large custom homes. I’m still waiting to see one of my 7,600 ft2 three story brick homes with a full basement being moved down I-85. Then there’s the home mortgage deduction, which subsidizes Peter by making it cheaper to buy his house as compared to other possibilities (leasing, buying a duplex with another family, etc.), and there’s the other zoning laws that prohibit mixed commercial-residential buildings like those that you’ll find in the inner portions of older cities (housing that could compete with Peter’s ticky-tacky slapped-together look-alike houses), and … all of which are government interventions have the direct effect of subsidizing Peter.

Once again Eric, you are wrong. You are so good a being wrong. Whomever owns the property can claim a tax deduction. The property can be a primary or secondary residence. It can be a mansion on the ocean, a trailer in Arkansas, or a boat. Eric, you can claim a tax deduction on a duplex that you are buying with another family too. You can claim a tax deduction if you own rental property too. That is usually called "depreciation." For those of you living in manufactured housing, deprecation is what you home does from the day you buy it. Eric, the average cost of one of my homes is about $375K and they way up from there. They are mostly one of a kind designs and pretty large. Would you like to buy one? Somehow Peter loves criticizing government interventions that impede his ability to pave the countryside, but utters not a peep about government interventions that place money in his pocket. Interesting. Let’s see, word, starts with ‘h’, 3 syllables…

Government does not make me any money. It is the free market that fuels my business. There are plenty of places in NC that allow mobile homes and manufactured home and they are certainly not a threat to my business. Nor are they a threat to the builders who compete in that price range. The only manufactured homes that are reasonably well constructed cannot compete in the site-built market. The government has spent [wasted] millions of dollars trying to develop affordable housing alternatives. My favorite was a high-rise mobile home park. I still have a picture of it around here somewhere. So Eric, how do you like your trailer?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, THAT lends credence to your arguments… Just can’t let go of the lessons learned at Mr. Limbaugh’s knee, can you? Herr Peter clones Limbaughs’s ideas, values, even jokes. He worships at the altar of Rush Limbaugh and Ollie North. What is utterly hilarious is that he goes into all these screeds about how government should not be restricting use of private property, when, as a builder of stick-built homes, he is one of the primary beneficiaries of such restrictions. After all, if cities did not have zoning codes outlawing manufactured housing on residential lots, then Peter would go out of business because he cannot build a stick-built house for the price of manufactured housing — he doesn’t have the volume, he has significant setup and breakdown costs, he can’t build in the rain (unlike an enclosed factory, where rain outside does not matter), his fixed overhead is idle during the "off" season, etc. Then there’s the home mortgage deduction, which subsidizes Peter by making it cheaper to buy his house as compared to other possibilities (leasing, buying a duplex with another family, etc.), and there’s the other zoning laws that prohibit mixed commercial-residential buildings like those that you’ll find in the inner portions of older cities (housing that could compete with Peter’s ticky-tacky slapped-together look-alike houses), and … all of which are government interventions have the direct effect of subsidizing Peter. Somehow Peter loves criticizing government interventions that impede his ability to pave the countryside, but utters not a peep about government interventions that place money in his pocket. Interesting. Let’s see, word, starts with ‘h’, 3 syllables…

It’s been my observation that many who call themselves "conservatives" and preach a free market economy are often feeding off the tit of the government, they just don’t want to or can’t see nor admit that they are. I’m sure Peter doesn’t accept nor admit that he is *subsidized" by the rest of us via the mortgage tax deduction and subsidies to the timber and other industries that allow him to "compete" for home buyers. Or that gov’t regulation actually promotes his business via zoning and other mechanisms. Beside, he ought to go play this silly straw man game with those who *really" wnat to play, not in a backcountry group. He may see himself as the town crier when in fact he’s more of the court jester. Mark — mark "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to teach him to hold in higher regard those who think alike rather than those who think differently." –Nietzsche

Response:

If you were any real sport you’d go over to alt.politics or alt.politics.bush or, or god forbid, alt.poltics.clinton and post this. Those places are full of trolls, you would fit in perfectly. Unless of course, you’re serious. In that case I would think you get your intellectual ass handed to you fairly quickly. If you had a brain in your head you would put me in your kill filter. By the way, it was a play on how the left tries to make an emergency out of everything. Now go away.

Response:

Puff Daschle Now, THAT lends credence to your arguments… Just can’t let go of the lessons learned at Mr. Limbaugh’s knee, can you?

Herr Peter clones Limbaughs’s ideas, values, even jokes. He worships at the altar of Rush Limbaugh and Ollie North.

Response:

Now, THAT lends credence to your arguments… Just can’t let go of the lessons learned at Mr. Limbaugh’s knee, can you? Herr Peter clones Limbaughs’s ideas, values, even jokes. He worships at the altar of Rush Limbaugh and Ollie North.

What is utterly hilarious is that he goes into all these screeds about how government should not be restricting use of private property, when, as a builder of stick-built homes, he is one of the primary beneficiaries of such restrictions. After all, if cities did not have zoning codes outlawing manufactured housing on residential lots, then Peter would go out of business because he cannot build a stick-built house for the price of manufactured housing — he doesn’t have the volume, he has significant setup and breakdown costs, he can’t build in the rain (unlike an enclosed factory, where rain outside does not matter), his fixed overhead is idle during the "off" season, etc. Then there’s the home mortgage deduction, which subsidizes Peter by making it cheaper to buy his house as compared to other possibilities (leasing, buying a duplex with another family, etc.), and there’s the other zoning laws that prohibit mixed commercial-residential buildings like those that you’ll find in the inner portions of older cities (housing that could compete with Peter’s ticky-tacky slapped-together look-alike houses), and … all of which are government interventions have the direct effect of subsidizing Peter. Somehow Peter loves criticizing government interventions that impede his ability to pave the countryside, but utters not a peep about government interventions that place money in his pocket. Interesting. Let’s see, word, starts with ‘h’, 3 syllables… Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg You do not save freedom by destroying freedom

Response:

If you had a brain in your head you would put me in your kill filter. By the way, it was a play on how the left tries to make an emergency out of everything. Now go away.

Response:

Puff Daschle

Now, THAT lends credence to your arguments… Just can’t let go of the lessons learned at Mr. Limbaugh’s knee, can you? Dan

Response:

Puff Daschle, supposedly the champion of the environment, is allowing his office to be filled with chlorine dioxide just in case there are any anthrax spores floating around. Daschle, the man who does want America to drill in the ANWR has no problem exterminating every form of life in his office. What if some endangered insects are living in his office? They will all be dead. There could be some rare type of mouse or rat hiding in the attic of his office. The chlorine dioxide would surely kill them too. Further, Puff Daschle, has no concern for the impact on the environment if this highly toxic, deadly chemical should escape from Senator Daschle’s office. If, as he says, we can’t drill in ANWR without a leak, how can we fill his office with this deadly chemical without having a leak? I call for all environmentalists, especially Muskie, to be willing to sacrifice their lives to protect the environment by staging a sit-in at Puff’s office. Possibly by breathing deeply, Muskie and the members of the Sierra Club can filter some of this toxic chemical from the environment. By filling his office with chlorine dioxide, Senator Daschle is creating an environmental disaster as well as providing a precedent for the use of this horrendous chemical by other people who fear anthrax spores [Anthrax is a naturally occurring life form and should not be the target for extermination by the democrats]. The implications of this obscene abuse of the environment by Senator Daschle could bring about the total and complete destruction of the ozone layer as well as poisoning the water that our children drink. It could be the end of life as we know it on this planet and it’s all the fault of Tom "Puff" Daschle.

Response:

Jacking and leveling house.

admin — Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry for this long post but I don’t know how to explain this easily. I have a small modular home, it came in two halves 13′ X 40′ and was set down on a poured foundation with an "I" beam in the center. The beam rests on the foundation at each end and on two poles near the center. I now realize that the "I" beam is about 1/4" too high. On each side of the beam, the house is "floating". It rests on the beam and then touches the foundation again about 6 feet away. A layer of that 1/4" pink foam stuff barely fills the gap. At the ends, the pink stuff is squashed flat. After 2 years, it hasn’t settled. The only reason this is a problem is because when the side door is slammed, (it’s directly above the "floating" part, you feel it though the entire house. I am thinking of jacking it up and removing a 1/4" piece of steel spacer at each end and above each pole. My question is… do you think I’ll mess up the drywall or the vinyl siding doing this. I sort of doubt it since the house is built stiff enough that it hasn’t settled yet. If it matters, I believe each half of the house weighs about 19,000 pounds. That’s what the crane operator told me anyway.

Tony, I did some jacking on my house, raising the beams under two walls about 3/4" in the middle of each span. We did it over a period of two weeks. The plaster, yes plaster, cracked at the upper corners of door openings in each wall up three floors. I still think it was worth it. TB

Response:

Sorry for this long post but I don’t know how to explain this easily. I have a small modular home, it came in two halves 13′ X 40′ and was set down on a poured foundation with an "I" beam in the center. The beam rests on the foundation at each end and on two poles near the center. I now realize that the "I" beam is about 1/4" too high. On each side of the beam, the house is "floating". It rests on the beam and then touches the foundation again about 6 feet away. A layer of that 1/4" pink foam stuff barely fills the gap. At the ends, the pink stuff is squashed flat. After 2 years, it hasn’t settled. The only reason this is a problem is because when the side door is slammed, (it’s directly above the "floating" part, you feel it though the entire house. I am thinking of jacking it up and removing a 1/4" piece of steel spacer at each end and above each pole. My question is… do you think I’ll mess up the drywall or the vinyl siding doing this. I sort of doubt it since the house is built stiff enough that it hasn’t settled yet. If it matters, I believe each half of the house weighs about 19,000 pounds. That’s what the crane operator told me anyway.