Question:

#Uh, what does this have to do with hunting?  I understand this discussion #began with something relevant, but it has drifted astray.  Personally< I don’t #mind too much, but  I bring it up to point out the utter hypocrisy of those #who say nothing about this off-topic discussion but have in the past demanded #discussions regarding nuisance deer be taken elsewhere. Ummm, Michael is right. And I was as guilty as anyone else. + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +     (taking the discussion elsewhere now). (409) 846-3273 (home)                   aol IM screenname:     cnbarnes Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: Uh, what does this have to do with hunting?  I understand this discussion : began with something relevant, but it has drifted astray.  Personally< I don’t : mind too much, but  I bring it up to point out the utter hypocrisy of those : who say nothing about this off-topic discussion but have in the past demanded : discussions regarding nuisance deer be taken elsewhere. : : Excellent points David.  And I have figured out what this has to do with : hunting.  David seems to be saying, "Don’t expect others to foot the bill for : your (nighttime) hunting."  To which I would add, "Don’t expect farmers to : foot the bill for your daytime hunting." disappointed had you not offered your own:):)                                        Good Hunting                                          David — Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

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On a side note,my wife and I recently deleivered presents to a neighbors soon to be married child who’s( future wife in a month or so)gave birth to their new son.Was told that all un-wed mothers that show up at hospitals now have their bills paid by medicaid,medicare!!!,no questions asked.Placed on wick and other freebies.This same couple that will wed later this spring and summer just bought a brand NEW modular home,dug a well,and placed a septic system on a two ac. plot their father gave them. Do you see where I going here??I’m damn tired of this B/S!,and I don’t care who’s pickle is involved!  What happened to the days when the hospital asked who the father was and please sign this BILL.I’m all for a little common sense here.Help those that need the help.But the above is total bullshit!I don’t think I should have my tax money spent in such a way and yes I’m all for hunting dead beat PARENTS down regardless of sex.  You and your pickle mess up don’t expect ME to pay thew bills!!Off box:):)                              Good Hunting                                   David — Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

Uh, what does this have to do with hunting?  I understand this discussion began with something relevant, but it has drifted astray.  Personally< I don’t mind too much, but  I bring it up to point out the utter hypocrisy of those who say nothing about this off-topic discussion but have in the past demanded discussions regarding nuisance deer be taken elsewhere. # On a side note,my wife and I recently deleivered presents to a neighbors # soon to be married child who’s( future wife in a month or so)gave birth # to their new son.Was told that all un-wed mothers that show up at hospitals # now have their bills paid by medicaid,medicare!!!,no questions # asked.Placed on wick and other freebies.This same couple that will wed # later this spring and summer just bought a brand NEW modular home,dug a # well,and placed a septic system on a two ac. plot their father gave them. # Do you see where I going here??I’m damn tired of this B/S!,and I don’t care # who’s pickle is involved! #  What happened to the days when the hospital asked who the father was and # please sign this BILL.I’m all for a little common sense here.Help those # that need the help.But the above is total bullshit!I don’t think I should # have my tax money spent in such a way and yes I’m all for hunting dead beat # PARENTS down regardless of sex. #  You and your pickle mess up don’t expect ME to pay thew bills!!Off box:):) #                              Good Hunting #                                   David Excellent points David.  And I have figured out what this has to do with hunting.  David seems to be saying, "Don’t expect others to foot the bill for your (nighttime) hunting."  To which I would add, "Don’t expect farmers to foot the bill for your daytime hunting." Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

#Uh, what does this have to do with hunting?  I understand this discussion #began with something relevant, but it has drifted astray.  Personally< I don’t #mind too much, but  I bring it up to point out the utter hypocrisy of those #who say nothing about this off-topic discussion but have in the past demanded #discussions regarding nuisance deer be taken elsewhere. Ummm, Michael is right. And I was as guilty as anyone else. + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +     (taking the discussion elsewhere now). (409) 846-3273 (home)                   aol IM screenname:     cnbarnes Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

#I think the bitterness and contempt for the child support system depends on #how badly you got screwed.  My ex left me for another guy 15 years ago, came #back 11 months later and took the house and everything I owned (by using the #kids in court), and then proceeded to alienate my kids from me over the past #15  years.  I  was   recently   ordered  to  pay  $876  per  month  for one #child……can  anyone  justify that kind of payment?  I don’t think so, but #the courts  ordered that and there are no  extraordinary  expenses I don’t think $800-$900 a month for a single child is excessive at all – especially if that child is a teenager.  After all a much higher percentage of your income would be going to providing for that kid if they lived with you (assuming you make $1500 / mo or more).  Think bigger place to live, food, *clothes*, "daddy I need money for …". You’re not getting any sympathy from me.  But then again, few divorce`s do (male or female). + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +     (married at 19, still married to same woman 17 years later) (409) 846-3273 (home)                   aol IM screenname:     cnbarnes Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: Uh, what does this have to do with hunting?  I understand this discussion : began with something relevant, but it has drifted astray.  Personally< I don’t : mind too much, but  I bring it up to point out the utter hypocrisy of those : who say nothing about this off-topic discussion but have in the past demanded : discussions regarding nuisance deer be taken elsewhere. : : Excellent points David.  And I have figured out what this has to do with : hunting.  David seems to be saying, "Don’t expect others to foot the bill for : your (nighttime) hunting."  To which I would add, "Don’t expect farmers to : foot the bill for your daytime hunting." disappointed had you not offered your own:):)                                        Good Hunting                                          David — Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

#I think the bitterness and contempt for the child support system depends on #how badly you got screwed.  My ex left me for another guy 15 years ago, came #back 11 months later and took the house and everything I owned (by using the #kids in court), and then proceeded to alienate my kids from me over the past #15  years.  I  was   recently   ordered  to  pay  $876  per  month  for one #child……can  anyone  justify that kind of payment?  I don’t think so, but #the courts  ordered that and there are no  extraordinary  expenses I don’t think $800-$900 a month for a single child is excessive at all – especially if that child is a teenager.  After all a much higher percentage of your income would be going to providing for that kid if they lived with you (assuming you make $1500 / mo or more).  Think bigger place to live, food, *clothes*, "daddy I need money for …". You’re not getting any sympathy from me.  But then again, few divorce`s do (male or female). + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +     (married at 19, still married to same woman 17 years later) (409) 846-3273 (home)                   aol IM screenname:     cnbarnes Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: # : # Las— Here is my answer.  I am not sure you’ll like it, but I’m going to : # give it anyway.  Having seen first hand the anguish caused by a man leaving : # his wife and kids because he needed someplace new to play hind the pickle, : # and felt that he no longer needed to support the children, I agree with not : # letting them hunt, unless they get to be the game. : I will enthusiastically second this. : Your kids come first.  If you’re not willing to accept the lifelong : responsibility of having kids, ya better keep ol’ willie in your pant : and out of hers.  No excuse, no exceptions.  I don’t care if it is a one : night stand or 10 years into marriage. It doesn’t matter if it is her : fault the relationship fails or yours.  It doesn’t relieve you of your : responsibilty to the kids. I agree with you, I just don’t agree with the  legalized  extortion in child support  law today.  How much is enough?  Certainly  current  child  support laws are  punitive,  not just what is  needed  to HELP  support  your  kids. That’s one reason  why so many men fail to pay.  Also, did you know that the incidence of "deadbeat  moms", as a  percentage  of those  ordered to pay is MUCH higher  than for men?  We should take away their right to go  shopping. : … this opinion is coming to you from an "ex-dad" who’s had his kid : corrupted by his ex wife into some sort of anti-gun tree huggin’ green : freak.  I’m 8 years into "making payments", 6 more years to go ’til : "freedom."  Am I bitter?  You bet.  But that emotional reaction in no : way lessens my responsibility to my kid. I think the bitterness and contempt for the child support system  depends on how badly you got screwed.  My ex left me for another guy 15 years ago, came back 11 months later and took the house and everything I owned (by using the kids in court), and then proceeded to alienate my kids from me over the past 15  years.  I  was   recently   ordered  to  pay  $876  per  month  for  one child……can  anyone  justify that kind of payment?  I don’t think so, but the courts  ordered that and there are no  extraordinary  expenses.  This is only for BASIC  support.  I have heard of awards much higher,  because child support  isn’t based on COST to raise your child, it’s based on your INCOME. : You’re talking about taking away hunting rights?  That’s NOTHING.  I’d : say take away drivers license and any professional licenses they have if : they are truly deadbeats. So you want to take away  their  ability to earn the money  that you want to extort from these guys?  That’s  pretty  warped  punishment,  IMO.  How is a doctor  supposed to earn the  thousands of dollars he’s  supposed to pay per month if you take away his  ability to drive and his  license  to  practice. All you’re doing is ensuring  that he’ll remain a "deadbeat".  Many of these guys are not "deadbeat  dads", but "beatdead dads".  They take away all your rights, then try to financially ruin you. : It’s one thing to try to cut someone some slack to get ‘em back on their : feet so they can meet their responsibilities.  It’s something else when : they make a lifestyle of being screwed up and avoiding responsibility. : When that happens, make ‘em pay DEARLY, I mean make it HURT. I say make the child  support laws fair *before* you start  punishing  those who won’t pay the absurd  orders.  If child support  really  reflected  YOUR portion of the COSTS to raise your child, compliance would increase, IMO.  I have  no  problem  helping  to  support  my  kids……I  do have a  problem supporting  my  ex-bitch.  And,  yes,  I’m  very  bitter.  My child  support payment is about $1500 per month pre tax…for ONE child. "I still miss my ex, but my aim is improving" Laszlo         Member: Wildlife Legislation Fund of America                 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society                 National Rifle Association                 Colorado Bowhunters Association                 Ft. Collins Archery Association      Let us prey…..      PETA– People for the Eating of Tasty Animals The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of Hewlett-Packard Company : Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

: Las— Here is my answer.  I am not sure you’ll like it, but I’m going to : give it anyway.  Having seen first hand the anguish caused by a man leaving : his wife and kids because he needed someplace new to play hind the pickle, : and felt that he no longer needed to support the children, I agree with not : letting them hunt, unless they get to be the game.  I am not fond of the : idea of putting debtors in prison, but I would make an exception in this : case. Unless you’ve been  subjected to the current  extortion  imposed on divorced dads by the kourts, I know you won’t  understand.  Child support  awards are SO HIGH that it amazes me there isn’t even more  non-compliance.  Go over to alt.child-support  for more horror  stories.  You obviously are out of touch with current child support law…..it’s changed a lot in recent years. I acknowledge there are cases such as the one you described.  However, my ex wife wanted our divorce and I’ve paid child support for 3 kids for 14 years. She moved out, took the kids, found a boyfriend (another "pickle"), and they came  back and took the  house and all my  belongings.  I have  very  little sympathy  for women who treat their ex’s like that.  Did you know that about 75% of the divorces currently are initiated by the wife? I have always paid my child  support, and have dropped over $100K in her lap to do with what she pleased.  This past January she took me to court and got $876 per month for my ONE  remaining  17 year old  daughter.  Not only that, the judge made me pay her  attorney’s  fees.  The  problem  is, my kids have never really benefited from all that money. She also receives $1031 from another sucker (the  boyfriend) she married and divorced  after me.  Thank God I have only one more year to pay.  The  point is, those of us that pay are abused and forced to pay unreasonable  amounts. Those  that  don’t pay often  can’t, or they  refuse to do so because of the outrageous  awards.  The state of  Colorado  is allowed  to take over 50% of your GROSS salary in child support…..other states have similar laws.  It’s not  based  on the  child’s  needs,  only  how much you  make.  There  is NO accountability on the part of the custodial parent. The bottom line is that I don’t agree with taking away a hunting license for failing to submit to extortion.  This is obviously a law proposed by a bunch of liberal  women, and passed by the  legislature  because  it’s PC.  If the awards were  reasonable,  then I would agree with any punishment for failing to pay.  How can you  justify  taking  away a man’s  drivers  license  and a professional license that he needs to do his job, then force him to pay? : As for "CONVICTED" felons,…I still believe in disenfranchisement. : So I have no problem with not allowing them to own firearms or to hunt. You’ll agree until you happen to be  convicted of a felony.  It’s awful easy to have that  happen in today’s  society.  Get in a fight with your wife and have her  falsely  claim  that you abused  her or  assaulted  her.  That’s a felony.  Have her claim that you  violated a  restraining  order…that’s  a felony.  Some automobile  accidents are  felonies….accident  or not.  Now, animal cruelty due to not recovering a wounded animal right away. : As for the animal cruelty thing, that’s a lot of hooey.  Anyone that has : hunted for very long or hunts very often will occassionally miss place a : shot.  That does not, in itself, constitute animal cruelty.  It’s when one : misplaces a shot and doesn’t bother to make an effort to find out if the : animal was hit or not….That’s animal cruelty. That’s  the way you see it.  These  indians  apparently  were  convicted  of animal  cruelty  because they didn’t  immediately  recover the  animals.  IT HAPPENED!!!  It COULD  happen  to you, and this case sets a  precedent.  YOU could be  convicted of animal  cruelty (a felony) if you  gut-shot an animal and someone chooses to push the case.  That was my point…..this  case sets a BAD precedent. : I saw a man take a shot at : a Couse Deer from about 400 yards, shooting offhand with a BAR in 7mm rem : mag a couple of years ago.  The deer moved off over the hill on the far : side of a canyon.  the man was going to walk away when I came up to him. : You see, I had been about half the distance away that he was and I needed : to get closer to take the shot.  There was a heck of a cross wind blowing. :  I told the guy that I thought he had hit the deer, and he better go and : check.  He said it was getting toward dark and he didn’t have a flash : light.  I offered mine and he almost got mad.  He did not want to go across : that canyon on a "maybe".  I think I shamed him into it.  His son, who was : on his first hunt, looked very relieved when his father agreed to hike : across the canyon and look.  Think about how it looked to the kid. : Just my thoughts. What’s your point?  Maybe what he did was unethical in your  mind…the  400 yard  shot.  Do you think  this guy  should  have been  convicted  of animal cruelty  for not  following  up a shot that he  thouht he  missed?  Even you would condemn this guy, but I’m sure many hunters have done the same. Think about it….. Laszlo         Member: Wildlife Legislation Fund of America                 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society                 National Rifle Association                 Colorado Bowhunters Association                 Ft. Collins Archery Association      Let us prey…..      PETA– People for the Eating of Tasty Animals The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of Hewlett-Packard Company : Dan (The Other One) : Dan (The Other One) : Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at: :         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ : To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

# # Las— Here is my answer.  I am not sure you’ll like it, but I’m going to # give it anyway.  Having seen first hand the anguish caused by a man leaving # his wife and kids because he needed someplace new to play hind the pickle, # and felt that he no longer needed to support the children, I agree with not # letting them hunt, unless they get to be the game. I will enthusiastically second this. Your kids come first.  If you’re not willing to accept the lifelong responsibility of having kids, ya better keep ol’ willie in your pant and out of hers.  No excuse, no exceptions.  I don’t care if it is a one night stand or 10 years into marriage. It doesn’t matter if it is her fault the relationship fails or yours.  It doesn’t relieve you of your responsibilty to the kids. … this opinion is coming to you from an "ex-dad" who’s had his kid corrupted by his ex wife into some sort of anti-gun tree huggin’ green freak.  I’m 8 years into "making payments", 6 more years to go ’til "freedom."  Am I bitter?  You bet.  But that emotional reaction in no way lessens my responsibility to my kid. You’re talking about taking away hunting rights?  That’s NOTHING.  I’d say take away drivers license and any professional licenses they have if they are truly deadbeats. It’s one thing to try to cut someone some slack to get ‘em back on their feet so they can meet their responsibilities.  It’s something else when they make a lifestyle of being screwed up and avoiding responsibility. When that happens, make ‘em pay DEARLY, I mean make it HURT. Tom Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

Response:

Las— Here is my answer.  I am not sure you’ll like it, but I’m going to give it anyway.  Having seen first hand the anguish caused by a man leaving his wife and kids because he needed someplace new to play hind the pickle, and felt that he no longer needed to support the children, I agree with not letting them hunt, unless they get to be the game.  I am not fond of the idea of putting debtors in prison, but I would make an exception in this case.  As for "CONVICTED" felons,…I still believe in disenfranchisement. So I have no problem with not allowing them to own firearms or to hunt. As for the animal cruelty thing, that’s a lot of hooey.  Anyone that has hunted for very long or hunts very often will occassionally miss place a shot.  That does not, in itself, constitute animal cruelty.  It’s when one misplaces a shot and doesn’t bother to make an effort to find out if the animal was hit or not….That’s animal cruelty.  I saw a man take a shot at a Couse Deer from about 400 yards, shooting offhand with a BAR in 7mm rem mag a couple of years ago.  The deer moved off over the hill on the far side of a canyon.  the man was going to walk away when I came up to him. You see, I had been about half the distance away that he was and I needed to get closer to take the shot.  There was a heck of a cross wind blowing.  I told the guy that I thought he had hit the deer, and he better go and check.  He said it was getting toward dark and he didn’t have a flash light.  I offered mine and he almost got mad.  He did not want to go across that canyon on a "maybe".  I think I shamed him into it.  His son, who was on his first hunt, looked very relieved when his father agreed to hike across the canyon and look.  Think about how it looked to the kid. Just my thoughts. Dan (The Other One) Dan (The Other One) Visit the rec.hunting and rec.hunting.dogs FAQ Home Page at:         http://sportsmansweb.com/hunting/ To leave the Hunting listserv list, send a message with SIGNOFF HUNTING

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